Since today fake Wima caps exist (had a few in a device last week) one should be cautious. Of the types I bought I kept the original packaging to be able to "prove" they are original.
These seem OK and apparently the Taiwanese seller bought a batch. I can send an email to Wima to check if they're still produced. Sometimes they have stuff in the datasheet that is obsolete as the product simply is not sold enough. Wima then directs you to a distributor they sold their last batch to. The stuff we like for audio, so small size/high(er) values with the better dielectrics are rarely used in the industry.
Lucky as we are Wima has some testosterone and therefor a tendency to produce a "Husarenstück" every now and then like highest value in smallest size. Just to show what they are capable of. Equivalents of these exact capacitors don't exist at other brands so these are commercially not viable.
These seem OK and apparently the Taiwanese seller bought a batch. I can send an email to Wima to check if they're still produced. Sometimes they have stuff in the datasheet that is obsolete as the product simply is not sold enough. Wima then directs you to a distributor they sold their last batch to. The stuff we like for audio, so small size/high(er) values with the better dielectrics are rarely used in the industry.
Lucky as we are Wima has some testosterone and therefor a tendency to produce a "Husarenstück" every now and then like highest value in smallest size. Just to show what they are capable of. Equivalents of these exact capacitors don't exist at other brands so these are commercially not viable.
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I use Kemet f612 series stacked polyester, 5mm lead spacing imo perfect for audio, pp is not necessary in most cases.
If you need more capacity I use a Nichicon muse np type, eus
in series with the f612.
If you do not like capacitors use a dc servo instead
If you need more capacity I use a Nichicon muse np type, eus
in series with the f612.
If you do not like capacitors use a dc servo instead
I am not sure how you determine dielectrics to be equal but I guess it depends on if it matters or not for the application. In many cases it does not matter imo
In my above response I should have said to put a cap in parallel instead of series
In my above response I should have said to put a cap in parallel instead of series
It is simple: just compare a MKT/MKS and a MKP of the value and same voltage rating of for example Wima and listen. Decide what you like best. BTW this is a a beaten track from the eighties when many were experimenting with this. Audio magazines were busy with it and the DIY Audio shops could let the DIYers listen to the differences and offered standard MKT/MKS caps and MKC/MKP as an upgrade option for the kits. Not to mention polystyrene caps. Caps have meanwhile improved though, pity that they now have ferro lead wires. Bummer.
If you do this for ages you also learn that paralleling coupling caps is not optimal. Then the choice for just 1 very good cap seems obvious. This especially counts for paralleling electrolytic caps of sorts with a film caps of sorts. For coupling that is. Decoupling is another story.
And .. the best cap is indeed no cap. Simplified but true in many cases.
If you do this for ages you also learn that paralleling coupling caps is not optimal. Then the choice for just 1 very good cap seems obvious. This especially counts for paralleling electrolytic caps of sorts with a film caps of sorts. For coupling that is. Decoupling is another story.
And .. the best cap is indeed no cap. Simplified but true in many cases.
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If one does not hear differences between coupling caps then it can be a cheap hobby. You don't need hypersensitive ears for that but the equipment itself must be good.
It is not about cost or boutique stuff. I use industrial quality and affordable MKS and MKP with pleasure and don't need the supposedly very best. Both win from electrolytic caps hands down.
It is not about cost or boutique stuff. I use industrial quality and affordable MKS and MKP with pleasure and don't need the supposedly very best. Both win from electrolytic caps hands down.
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How many people other than you can state they can hear a difference? You and John Curl perhaps?
Of course I doubt you can hear a difference because a do not know how you performed your tests, double blind? Or knowing ahead of time what you were evaluating? which imo is a biased test.
Even then if you have customers do you think the average listener is going to tell a difference, I doubt it
Of course I doubt you can hear a difference because a do not know how you performed your tests, double blind? Or knowing ahead of time what you were evaluating? which imo is a biased test.
Even then if you have customers do you think the average listener is going to tell a difference, I doubt it
.......german sellers have these, reichelt et cetera
https://www.reichelt.de/de/de//446/...b2ecfe33e3ab786f1c808&LANGUAGE=EN&SEARCH=wima
rsavas, I started this hobby when I was 10 or 11. HiFi, 741 opamps and caps were quite mediocre then and I started to experiment with other caps and opamps etc. Then I only was able to listen and I was not educated yet and I did not have any equipment besides a wornout multimeter. My ears are nothing special but I do hear improvements and that is why I started with audio. To make stuff better. Wima was then one of the brands that produced the better parts hence my weak spot for the brand. Just like Marcon produced the better electrolytic caps then which measured clearly better than the blue Philips caps (we even had to measure this at technical school!). NE5534 was a better opamp than the 741. You can ridicule me as much as you like by comparing me to a famous dude (which does not impress either) but that is a bit below the belt as it is you that is the exception here. Don't make stuff personal to make a point. If your ears don't hear that is fine but many many others do hear it. Contrary to many famous dudes that know it all I have no commercial interest in what I do in audio. I don't need to state that what earns most sounds best for instance.
In my country audio was quite big and many evenings were spent comparing caps in equipment and speakers. There are differences which is not surprising as they have different dieelectrics and specs. It would be awkward when one hears differences between 2 of the same caps. I know for decades that well decoupled DC coupled stages are a very nice cap replacement and I try to have just 2 caps only in the power amplifier for when things go wrong. That is also a way to deal with coupling. The less caps the better.
All useless debating as anyone with 2 brain cells can do these simple tests with various caps and various voltage ratings. Some make it a lifetime hobby (also fed by uncertainty) and buy boutique caps with gold and silver and whatnot which is the other side of the spectrum. They would not do so if they would not hear a difference. If that small difference is worth the hundreds of Euros is the question.
In my country audio was quite big and many evenings were spent comparing caps in equipment and speakers. There are differences which is not surprising as they have different dieelectrics and specs. It would be awkward when one hears differences between 2 of the same caps. I know for decades that well decoupled DC coupled stages are a very nice cap replacement and I try to have just 2 caps only in the power amplifier for when things go wrong. That is also a way to deal with coupling. The less caps the better.
All useless debating as anyone with 2 brain cells can do these simple tests with various caps and various voltage ratings. Some make it a lifetime hobby (also fed by uncertainty) and buy boutique caps with gold and silver and whatnot which is the other side of the spectrum. They would not do so if they would not hear a difference. If that small difference is worth the hundreds of Euros is the question.
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I do not want to ridicule you but at the end of the day someone has to logically decide, what to use, as is what this original OP is asking
so I give my advise and so do you
The OP has now been given some recommendations, it is up to them to decide, determine/evaluate and hopefully provide their feedback as to there experience.
so I give my advise and so do you
The OP has now been given some recommendations, it is up to them to decide, determine/evaluate and hopefully provide their feedback as to there experience.
You wrote "you and John Curl perhaps" which simply is not fair. This is a mean political way to make a (useless) point and it is not a habit of persons with strong characters. Now I am about to do something useful. Ciao!
Quote
"How many people other than you can state they can hear a difference? You and John Curl perhaps?
Of course I doubt you can hear a difference because a do not know how you performed your tests, double blind? Or knowing ahead of time what you were evaluating? which imo is a biased test.
Hi,
I invite you to use the search function on my posts.
On many different gears we - as I wasn't alone - played with caps replacements and bypasses. You can read the detailled reports that were posted here and under what completely desinteressed conditions the comparos were performed amongst friends, often on units that I don't even own myself and switching blindly between several identical units except for one single cap mod under evaluation, while having some references always in the loop.
You can also read on these various threads how many people performed / are still performing said posted mods and seem very happy with the result. Alternatively, you could by the cheapest units we played with, a 40$ Class D amp, and perform the mods yourself. Plenty caps to play with at different locations, space being a problem.
So, NO, I don't think Jean-Paul made that up, isn't consistent, or "alone" to hear a difference... in most cases the difference is not just a difference, but when confronting notes clearly a common finding / sonic trend.
Quote: "Even then if you have customers do you think the average listener is going to tell a difference, I doubt it"
Indeed, the average listener, if not trained and no concentrated, probably doesn't hear a difference, be it alone because the average listener doesn't care to start with. But then the average listener is happy with heavily compressed MP3 played on a portable single louspeaker with whatever DSP faking stereo, if not even listening on his smartphone speaker... I have seen this, don't know if average though LOL.
Point is the average listener probably doesn't care, that doesn't mean he couldn't hear a difference nor appreciate it longterm, but that's another point. Point is also the average listener has little chances to end up in this audio oriented and educated forum... why would he?
At the end everyone is free to do what he wishes, and we all perceive sound differently as that process includes both our ears and our brain. You are also free to hear and believe what you want, of course! On the other hand, out of respect to individuals, I wouldn't encourage you to extend your own judgements to others.
'nough said, I am out of this thread
Enjoy music, as that is what it is about!
Claude
PS: I am not related to Jean-Paul, I don't always share the same POV, but I indeed admit I always benefit from reading most of his contributions - be it alone to trigger some thoughts in my tortuous engineer mind.
"How many people other than you can state they can hear a difference? You and John Curl perhaps?
Of course I doubt you can hear a difference because a do not know how you performed your tests, double blind? Or knowing ahead of time what you were evaluating? which imo is a biased test.
Hi,
I invite you to use the search function on my posts.
On many different gears we - as I wasn't alone - played with caps replacements and bypasses. You can read the detailled reports that were posted here and under what completely desinteressed conditions the comparos were performed amongst friends, often on units that I don't even own myself and switching blindly between several identical units except for one single cap mod under evaluation, while having some references always in the loop.
You can also read on these various threads how many people performed / are still performing said posted mods and seem very happy with the result. Alternatively, you could by the cheapest units we played with, a 40$ Class D amp, and perform the mods yourself. Plenty caps to play with at different locations, space being a problem.
So, NO, I don't think Jean-Paul made that up, isn't consistent, or "alone" to hear a difference... in most cases the difference is not just a difference, but when confronting notes clearly a common finding / sonic trend.
Quote: "Even then if you have customers do you think the average listener is going to tell a difference, I doubt it"
Indeed, the average listener, if not trained and no concentrated, probably doesn't hear a difference, be it alone because the average listener doesn't care to start with. But then the average listener is happy with heavily compressed MP3 played on a portable single louspeaker with whatever DSP faking stereo, if not even listening on his smartphone speaker... I have seen this, don't know if average though LOL.
Point is the average listener probably doesn't care, that doesn't mean he couldn't hear a difference nor appreciate it longterm, but that's another point. Point is also the average listener has little chances to end up in this audio oriented and educated forum... why would he?
At the end everyone is free to do what he wishes, and we all perceive sound differently as that process includes both our ears and our brain. You are also free to hear and believe what you want, of course! On the other hand, out of respect to individuals, I wouldn't encourage you to extend your own judgements to others.
'nough said, I am out of this thread
Enjoy music, as that is what it is about!
Claude
PS: I am not related to Jean-Paul, I don't always share the same POV, but I indeed admit I always benefit from reading most of his contributions - be it alone to trigger some thoughts in my tortuous engineer mind.
Rvas, of course there are differences, sometimes little sometimes huge. Your source and speaker if good enough let you perceive that easy enough.
I invit you just for the fun to try 3 caps in input or output in serie of a pre for instance and without scaling them as this depends on your set up. Just here to notice how different is the result ...
Mkt axial vishay ero 1813
Mkp Panasonic ECWFE radial
Mkp 716P radial (orange drop)
I could give you many more ref, NOS or new, different dielectric more, but those three as talked in the thread just for the exercice as very different sonic tonality behavior. According your setup one should give you a personal preference or not suit your tastes...there are a lot of different caps that help you to set up according your whole setup. It is not one is always better but on the datasheet (mkp wins over mkt on paper for illustration), but one particular may tame or enhance the tonal balance enough for your particular case. It is of course not the alpha and Omega of electronic but a usefull knowledge/experience a diyer should have, even if on the diminishing return side of things. But from my humble experience with caps, sometimes it is a game changer. I know I made sounding JP Subbu 2 times better just playing with caps from the powerbsupply to the ref cap of a sigma delta ESS Dac chip 😉. From my point of view, reading this thread, having played a lot and today yet with thousands of caps from smd to huge industrials from all the dielectrics, Jean-Paul as ClaudeG made sinceer inputs here and know what they talk about.
I invit you just for the fun to try 3 caps in input or output in serie of a pre for instance and without scaling them as this depends on your set up. Just here to notice how different is the result ...
Mkt axial vishay ero 1813
Mkp Panasonic ECWFE radial
Mkp 716P radial (orange drop)
I could give you many more ref, NOS or new, different dielectric more, but those three as talked in the thread just for the exercice as very different sonic tonality behavior. According your setup one should give you a personal preference or not suit your tastes...there are a lot of different caps that help you to set up according your whole setup. It is not one is always better but on the datasheet (mkp wins over mkt on paper for illustration), but one particular may tame or enhance the tonal balance enough for your particular case. It is of course not the alpha and Omega of electronic but a usefull knowledge/experience a diyer should have, even if on the diminishing return side of things. But from my humble experience with caps, sometimes it is a game changer. I know I made sounding JP Subbu 2 times better just playing with caps from the powerbsupply to the ref cap of a sigma delta ESS Dac chip 😉. From my point of view, reading this thread, having played a lot and today yet with thousands of caps from smd to huge industrials from all the dielectrics, Jean-Paul as ClaudeG made sinceer inputs here and know what they talk about.
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There will never be a diminishing return (almost) when you'll reach the sound you like from your setup.
It will last forever and the enjoyment you'll get from it has no price. Like finding the perfect recipe.
About double blind tests, i think those are kinda useless... you should listen atleast 100hours on a setup and then replace things.
You'll understand much more clearly the difference but most of all, you will notice the fatiguing and the enjoyment that the sound will produce over that period.
Double blind tests are useful only for massive difference in the negative or in the positive aspect.
This is my point of view.
If you think differently, it's completely fine. Listening to other's opinions and experience is the best thing you could do in this hobby, doesn't matter how you think.
It could always help you to understand and test/learn new things.
Thank you all for your input!
It will last forever and the enjoyment you'll get from it has no price. Like finding the perfect recipe.
About double blind tests, i think those are kinda useless... you should listen atleast 100hours on a setup and then replace things.
You'll understand much more clearly the difference but most of all, you will notice the fatiguing and the enjoyment that the sound will produce over that period.
Double blind tests are useful only for massive difference in the negative or in the positive aspect.
This is my point of view.
If you think differently, it's completely fine. Listening to other's opinions and experience is the best thing you could do in this hobby, doesn't matter how you think.
It could always help you to understand and test/learn new things.
Thank you all for your input!
Now you got me interested 🙂 Please tell what was used. You do know this DAC thingie was only meant to get most out of the 4 $ DAC chip. It was never meant to be high end or something like that.
Regarding the cap item: more than once (in fact way more than once) I was fooled by my own ears as one gets accustomed to a particular sound character. New caps also often sound different after some time. It is indeed difficult to form a valid opinion with AB switching, double blind and whatnot. Most peculiar are/were the Black Gate caps which could change from pleasant to ugly stabilizing back to very pleasant in hours/days. Replacing the buffer caps in class AB power amplifiers for ultra low ESR quality caps and then the owner complaining the sound character was gone just because the old worn-out caps had given the amplifier a certain character one got used to....Then after a few weeks very satisfied as it really got better?! Taste, personal preference, emotion, blah blah from fora/famous dudes/audio magazines, listening with eyes, willingness to put time in something, time, all factors that have an influence.
So, listening/judging capacitors by ear is an awkward item taking way more time than one initially thought to spend. As Danieledp writes... but 100 hours per cap type is a lot of time. Easiest is to think good enough is good enough and be done with it. The quite harsh reality is that a chain that is improved to the max can be a burden as then the average material to play back is the weakest link 😀
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That is true and also one caps setup may sounds bad elsewhere. It is a whole you listen at the end. However some caps are less equal than others. I liked this little Subbu,,sounded acurate when you solved the fat low end. Whatever the relative low price it was giving a beginning of high end sound. I am sure many would not need more and I still have two boards on shelves. Still can enhance some cd player or Duet box style having the spidf copper wire output... It reconciliated me with the modern chips. However I still daily listening to old pcm ones. Personal tastes.
Sorry off topic, but caps matters for sure.
Sorry off topic, but caps matters for sure.
JUst buy your caps from reputable companies like Mouser, Digikey and Farnell. The you don't have to worry about fakes. Buying off eBay is never worth the few pence you save.
Cheers
Ian
Cheers
Ian