I am thinking of using Wima DC-link caps for filtering in my tube amp PS. Have you used them before? Please share experience, in particular, how they fare vs best electrolytics.
I considered them because of their specs and more importantly their physical size which allows me to use them as direct replacements of the electrolytics in use.
I just wonder how well do they SOUND vs electrolytics although I tend to think better is the answer. But like to hear from others' experience.
I just wonder how well do they SOUND vs electrolytics although I tend to think better is the answer. But like to hear from others' experience.
I have used DC-Link CDE (round) 800vdc in the B+ and Vishay MKP (flat) 500vdc in the screens circuit for about 2 plus years. The result is clean no haze sound, extreme detail, ultra fast transients, deeper wider stage and height too, instruments and voices clearly defined in space, deeper cleaner lows and highs.
The difference is more than worth ALL the trouble if sound is important to you and you have quality speakers that can present that difference. I have used them in a total of six amps now including vintage.
You can find them on ebay for a fraction of list price these days. Making space is the biggest problem, so plan well. Even if you have an outside box to hold them, the cable will not make any difference you can hear (keep the rectifier in the same box with the caps). Vishay are flat, Wima may also be flat. Some may feel that flat caps can vibrate internally, maybe so, and in that case I use them in the bias and screen circuits rather than B+.
You really don't need as much capacitance either, a 20% or more reduction will work fine...they run circles around even the best electrolytic including Mundorf and the rest. One amp with multiple caps in series totaled 840uf (add uf up and divide by the number of caps), and 600uf MKP worked with no difference, no strain, no loss of "steam".
You might get responses from members telling you don't waste you time or money...that is what I was told. Questioning your reasons, intentions, your amp, and such without really answering your question. Glad I didn't listen, which included tossing my amp in the dumpster. I have not posted here in about 3 years as a result.
I hope that this helps answer you question directly about the sound and use vs electrolytic caps.
The difference is more than worth ALL the trouble if sound is important to you and you have quality speakers that can present that difference. I have used them in a total of six amps now including vintage.
You can find them on ebay for a fraction of list price these days. Making space is the biggest problem, so plan well. Even if you have an outside box to hold them, the cable will not make any difference you can hear (keep the rectifier in the same box with the caps). Vishay are flat, Wima may also be flat. Some may feel that flat caps can vibrate internally, maybe so, and in that case I use them in the bias and screen circuits rather than B+.
You really don't need as much capacitance either, a 20% or more reduction will work fine...they run circles around even the best electrolytic including Mundorf and the rest. One amp with multiple caps in series totaled 840uf (add uf up and divide by the number of caps), and 600uf MKP worked with no difference, no strain, no loss of "steam".
You might get responses from members telling you don't waste you time or money...that is what I was told. Questioning your reasons, intentions, your amp, and such without really answering your question. Glad I didn't listen, which included tossing my amp in the dumpster. I have not posted here in about 3 years as a result.
I hope that this helps answer you question directly about the sound and use vs electrolytic caps.
Those caps seem to have been designed for high power high frequency SMPS, where their characteristics are helpful. For ordinary linear mains PSU they should behave no better than a decent electrolytic, but no worse either.
In the case of an SET, where the PSU output components are part of the audio output stage there may be a small improvement. For PP all you will get is a warm glow inside you.
Much much more important than PSU caps is PSU grounding, and audio circuit design. Not to mention loudspeakers and the room too.
In the case of an SET, where the PSU output components are part of the audio output stage there may be a small improvement. For PP all you will get is a warm glow inside you.
Much much more important than PSU caps is PSU grounding, and audio circuit design. Not to mention loudspeakers and the room too.
"inside every PP is a hidden poor quality SE circuit" said Lynn Olsen . Since any audio PS has frequency impedance issues, I find the idea of linear hard to come by and harder to try to employ less you be among the very rich.. The Power supply is also a part of a PP circuit, plate to transformer, to B+, transformer to cathode. Anything to help improve that B+ haze, smear, time domain interference from any cap, especially electrolytic types (decent or otherwise), should not be discounted if you have not heard the film difference. Do you also doubt the difference coupling caps can make?
With all due respect, have you heard the difference? No, you have not, yet you have a strong opinion on a sound you have not heard. DF96, You say "behave no better ....but no worse" is simply telling the questioner not to give it a try because you discount the idea.. exactly what I was told...and by you no less 3 years ago. Glad I paid no attention to you opinion. Interesting, however, that you still follow the application and execution. Perhaps you will give these caps a try in your own amp after all.
I does not matter if the amp is SE or PP, tube or transistor, an electrolytic cap is the dirtiest part of the circuit, be it power supply or any part of the signal path. This is no secret.
We have to assume that the original questioner did not have a problem with ground issues, speakers, or the room modes. Indeed, All very important, but not mentioned in his question.
With all due respect, have you heard the difference? No, you have not, yet you have a strong opinion on a sound you have not heard. DF96, You say "behave no better ....but no worse" is simply telling the questioner not to give it a try because you discount the idea.. exactly what I was told...and by you no less 3 years ago. Glad I paid no attention to you opinion. Interesting, however, that you still follow the application and execution. Perhaps you will give these caps a try in your own amp after all.
I does not matter if the amp is SE or PP, tube or transistor, an electrolytic cap is the dirtiest part of the circuit, be it power supply or any part of the signal path. This is no secret.
We have to assume that the original questioner did not have a problem with ground issues, speakers, or the room modes. Indeed, All very important, but not mentioned in his question.
I am pleased that my advice is so well remembered. I can't remember what I told people 3 years ago.
Electrolytics can add some distortion, if they have significant signal voltage across them. That is why good design generally avoids putting significant signal voltage across them, usually by ensuring that an appropriate cap value is used.
If someone has spent time and money on using a component or technique which is unnecessary in engineering terms but otherwise harmless then it is very likely that he will prefer the resultant sound. Even his wife in the kitchen will approve. This effect usually happens even when you expect it to happen; it is more likely when you think it won't happen.
Electrolytics can add some distortion, if they have significant signal voltage across them. That is why good design generally avoids putting significant signal voltage across them, usually by ensuring that an appropriate cap value is used.
I doubt the difference correct value and appropriate dielectric coupling caps can make, if all that is changed is the brand and/or cost. Unless, of course, some of the caps are faulty or poorly made.glassandlight said:
If someone has spent time and money on using a component or technique which is unnecessary in engineering terms but otherwise harmless then it is very likely that he will prefer the resultant sound. Even his wife in the kitchen will approve. This effect usually happens even when you expect it to happen; it is more likely when you think it won't happen.
Polipropilene capacitors are generally much better then electrolitics, no matter what application they have optimised for. If they are optimised for high freq and high current, it doesnt mean they are less excellent in any other aspect.
I hope he didn't mean that. If he did mean it then he is not comparing like with like.Pafi said:
Some poly caps with around 275-350VAC ratings can also have quite high DCV ratings specified (I've seen up to 760VDC ratings on 275VAC Epcos X2).
Perhaps not the intended application of the OP, but I have found them quite practical to use in old amp restorations, where original cap was just 8-16uF with a 600-650VDC working level. The electrolytic work-around would have been a series connection with balance resistors. Similarly for a CLC filter where the aim is to use a low value first C, and so it has to survive a high working VAC level.
Because poly's don't typically degrade, they can be harvested from defunct power equipment like UPS if you are in to that sort of thing, and shouldn't need replacing in 20-30 years. Perhaps if the recycling industry realised how many audiophiles could use caps like the DC-Link, then there should be a good supply in a decade or so (or however long it takes for some part in a large smps to fail, and the equipment to be replaced). I'm sure there will be a surfeit of PV inverters getting recycled soon.
Perhaps not the intended application of the OP, but I have found them quite practical to use in old amp restorations, where original cap was just 8-16uF with a 600-650VDC working level. The electrolytic work-around would have been a series connection with balance resistors. Similarly for a CLC filter where the aim is to use a low value first C, and so it has to survive a high working VAC level.
Because poly's don't typically degrade, they can be harvested from defunct power equipment like UPS if you are in to that sort of thing, and shouldn't need replacing in 20-30 years. Perhaps if the recycling industry realised how many audiophiles could use caps like the DC-Link, then there should be a good supply in a decade or so (or however long it takes for some part in a large smps to fail, and the equipment to be replaced). I'm sure there will be a surfeit of PV inverters getting recycled soon.
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