MJL21193 said:
Dead wrong... not even close. Given the opportunity, most people interested in listening to hifi, are given a chance, able to hear these sorts of differences. At least that is my real world experience.
I'm trying to build the best boxes i can, not OK boxes. 3 big green dumpsters a week of MDF get hauled off from Chris' work. Yet instead of using essentially free MDF (we'd have to buy pieces for big panels), we choose to buy BB because we figured out that after building many, many, well designed MDF boxes that indeed it was not the best use of our time to continue building boxes out of MDF.
dave
And on the subject of full-ranges... most of the FullRangers here are here because they were seduced by a full range speaker at some time. Despite their sometimes annoying limitations, a good FR does things that are so seductive they make the faults worth putting up with. Most multiways sound flat & liffless. And there is no question that FRs can be value.price leaders (by a long ways)
I'm exposed to big buck multi-ways from likes of B&W 8xx, Linn, Sonus Faber on a regular basis. The new Sonus Faber Ellipsa is pretty good... be very interesting to directly compare the mids of a set of Fonkens... the active Articulates i heard last week were just plain BAD. All of these thou usually mean you can't use the best amplifiers (which all tend towards small)
Watch out John... a full-range system is out there, just waiting to seduce you 🙂
dave
I'm exposed to big buck multi-ways from likes of B&W 8xx, Linn, Sonus Faber on a regular basis. The new Sonus Faber Ellipsa is pretty good... be very interesting to directly compare the mids of a set of Fonkens... the active Articulates i heard last week were just plain BAD. All of these thou usually mean you can't use the best amplifiers (which all tend towards small)
Watch out John... a full-range system is out there, just waiting to seduce you 🙂
dave
planet10 said:
Funny how a high number of DIY speakers (maybe as much as 99%) are built with MDF. I guess they haven't heard the difference.
I use MDF for a box if I want to give it a decent paint job or if I want it to be heavy (a sub). MDF is not a great product to work with but it has some pluses - it's cheap, it's smooth and relatively stable. Any day of the week, I'd rather work with plywood, not because it sounds better, but because it's nicer to work with.
If I were to pursue a commercial enterprise (such as you are doing), I'd use plywood over free MDF also.
planet10 said:
The Artikulats have gotten very good reviews, I'm surprised you describe them as bad. Maybe there is a clue as to your personal preferences.
I really doubt that a fullrange can satisfy me, given the music I like and how I like to hear it. But hey, you never know what the future holds.
As an aside, having owned a few pairs of L*nn speakers, (not the aforementioned one's though) I've never had the glorious mids that some full range driver are capable of, and at a fraction of the cost. Ymmv, of course.
Don
Don
MJL21193 said:
They may actually have been active Komris (5-way with 2 woofers).... i was surprised at how bad they were (i put it down to the room). One just had to go to the next listening room and listen to the Ellipses to know how bad they were... and supposedly well broken in and set up by the Linn guys themselves.
I don't pay much attention to the reviews... i have heard more than enuff well reviewd stuff that is just not good at all.
dave
MJL...if you doubt....
that a fullrange could satisfy you, why stay within the fullrange section of the forum, simply to argue?
And unless you have experienced what a good fullrange can do, don't doubt it.
I am not exclusively for or against fullrangers, but my 20+ years within this hobby has suggested that there are somethings that fullrangers can do that simply can't be done with multi-ways (and I've heard my fair share of good multi-kilobuck ones to have formed this opinion).
and to some extent I agree with folks that don't have access to reasonably priced quality goods. or for prototyping a proof of concept (cardboard can work here too). We Canucks are lucky in this regard.
oh, weren't you the guy that started something on one of the other forums regarding another piece of audio or concept--presumeable to "stir things up",just for the sake of it? yup I think you are, arguing against the EnABL idea as presented by BdP.
If you have a meaningful contribution, rather than stirring things up, please continue. Otherwise, please stop.
If you have never heard what a good fullranger can do--go listen to one. And , as a simple tradesman (your description, not mine), then make a couple of otherwise identical enclosures, using identical drivers, and listen for yourself 🙂
that a fullrange could satisfy you, why stay within the fullrange section of the forum, simply to argue?
And unless you have experienced what a good fullrange can do, don't doubt it.
I am not exclusively for or against fullrangers, but my 20+ years within this hobby has suggested that there are somethings that fullrangers can do that simply can't be done with multi-ways (and I've heard my fair share of good multi-kilobuck ones to have formed this opinion).
and to some extent I agree with folks that don't have access to reasonably priced quality goods. or for prototyping a proof of concept (cardboard can work here too). We Canucks are lucky in this regard.
oh, weren't you the guy that started something on one of the other forums regarding another piece of audio or concept--presumeable to "stir things up",just for the sake of it? yup I think you are, arguing against the EnABL idea as presented by BdP.
If you have a meaningful contribution, rather than stirring things up, please continue. Otherwise, please stop.
If you have never heard what a good fullranger can do--go listen to one. And , as a simple tradesman (your description, not mine), then make a couple of otherwise identical enclosures, using identical drivers, and listen for yourself 🙂
Re: MJL...if you doubt....
How little you know of me. Here's an assignment for you: do some reading on my lack of contribution here, research your subject before you cast dispersions and rule me unsuitable for your forum. Start in this very thread.
Remove your high hat and open your eyes.
Nanook said:
How little you know of me. Here's an assignment for you: do some reading on my lack of contribution here, research your subject before you cast dispersions and rule me unsuitable for your forum. Start in this very thread.
Remove your high hat and open your eyes.
MJL...
this is exactly the behaviour you exhibitted in the EnABL thread. And of course I couldn't resist the bait.
as far as "my high horse", sorry it's not me, any who know me understand my motives. And my eyes are pretty much open. Arguement for it's own sake is simply a waste of time.
I don't doubt that you have had and/or continue to have a meaningfull contibution, but again arguing for it's own sake is a waste, and that is the appearance of your posts.
I still think that unless you have heard what a full ranger can do for you, then it's tough to qualify your "doubtfullness"
As far as MDF vs. whatever alternative, other than arguing for the sake of it, please explain to me with your personal experiences of MDF vs other materials. Ultimately for you and others MDF is OK or you can't hear the difference or justify the costs, etc. Again, I'm not rich by any means, but poor old paupery me can even afford BB ply for some projects. Compared to the cost of the drivers and time, it's a small price to pay (in my opinion). I've been convinced by myself and my personal experiences. Maybe I've missed something in your posts.
1140 posts and going strong....
enjoy your arguements
this is exactly the behaviour you exhibitted in the EnABL thread. And of course I couldn't resist the bait.
as far as "my high horse", sorry it's not me, any who know me understand my motives. And my eyes are pretty much open. Arguement for it's own sake is simply a waste of time.
I don't doubt that you have had and/or continue to have a meaningfull contibution, but again arguing for it's own sake is a waste, and that is the appearance of your posts.
I still think that unless you have heard what a full ranger can do for you, then it's tough to qualify your "doubtfullness"
As far as MDF vs. whatever alternative, other than arguing for the sake of it, please explain to me with your personal experiences of MDF vs other materials. Ultimately for you and others MDF is OK or you can't hear the difference or justify the costs, etc. Again, I'm not rich by any means, but poor old paupery me can even afford BB ply for some projects. Compared to the cost of the drivers and time, it's a small price to pay (in my opinion). I've been convinced by myself and my personal experiences. Maybe I've missed something in your posts.
1140 posts and going strong....
enjoy your arguements
Hello gentlemem, may I try again?
Lets make a test… A bunch of boxes of same design, same size, you chose whether bass reflex, closed type, single speaker no crossover to 6 speakers 3 crossovers, chose which type to test, but change only the material you use, from MDF, to chips, ply, mahogany, ash, aluminum, concrete, depleted uranium…
Strictly with the same dimensions. Same walls, same whatever you put in, same speaker. Then, don’t relay on the ears of anybody, get a digital audio spectrum analyzer, a pink noise generator and a good amplifier, an oscilloscope and a function generator. Test all the enclosures in the same environment. This makes a test a scientific test. Then compare the results.
This is a test on the material, not just a random test on a random combination.
What I learnt by a little experience, is that even cardboard enclosure sounds good if you work hard on it. What makes a good speaker is a combination of a lot of variables, a part of that combination is the quality of the material you employ. And not quality of sound is the only goal to achieve, but time lasting, good aspect, resistance to shock, wife attacks… etc…🙄
My cardboard test speakers lasted four days… destroyed by a wife attack. A demonstration that depleted uranium cabinet should be longer lasting.
In other words, by my experience, a cabinet made of MDF could sound about the same of another one made of concrete, o aluminum, or anything else, but modified to do so. Different material made cabinets can sound the same if they are different in shape, in size, in bracing, in crossover, in speakers if you made it so. Is this a little confusing?
Cheers.
Larry.
P.S.
I’ll start investigating on the “glue mystery” soon.
Lets make a test… A bunch of boxes of same design, same size, you chose whether bass reflex, closed type, single speaker no crossover to 6 speakers 3 crossovers, chose which type to test, but change only the material you use, from MDF, to chips, ply, mahogany, ash, aluminum, concrete, depleted uranium…
Strictly with the same dimensions. Same walls, same whatever you put in, same speaker. Then, don’t relay on the ears of anybody, get a digital audio spectrum analyzer, a pink noise generator and a good amplifier, an oscilloscope and a function generator. Test all the enclosures in the same environment. This makes a test a scientific test. Then compare the results.
This is a test on the material, not just a random test on a random combination.
What I learnt by a little experience, is that even cardboard enclosure sounds good if you work hard on it. What makes a good speaker is a combination of a lot of variables, a part of that combination is the quality of the material you employ. And not quality of sound is the only goal to achieve, but time lasting, good aspect, resistance to shock, wife attacks… etc…🙄
My cardboard test speakers lasted four days… destroyed by a wife attack. A demonstration that depleted uranium cabinet should be longer lasting.
In other words, by my experience, a cabinet made of MDF could sound about the same of another one made of concrete, o aluminum, or anything else, but modified to do so. Different material made cabinets can sound the same if they are different in shape, in size, in bracing, in crossover, in speakers if you made it so. Is this a little confusing?
Cheers.
Larry.
P.S.
I’ll start investigating on the “glue mystery” soon.
Here, Here! This is the essence of the problem. Conventional wisdom is that plywood boxes sound bright and MDF boxes sound dull. When we are talking about subtle differences, sighted comparisons are worthless. We hear what we want to hear, particularly when the two systems are removed in time and space.
In case anyone doesn't know, my answer is 3/4" MDF laminated to 1/4" cement board with "Liquid Nails", and no I don't have any plots to prove the point. Perhaps this winter I'll get of the dime and do some comparisons.
Bob
In case anyone doesn't know, my answer is 3/4" MDF laminated to 1/4" cement board with "Liquid Nails", and no I don't have any plots to prove the point. Perhaps this winter I'll get of the dime and do some comparisons.
Bob
Hi
I would tend to disagree with some peoples assesment of some of MJL21193 post's,
I rather think he is playing the role of a "Court Jester" (No offence meant John)
in the medievil political sense, and as such take his comments on board in that spirit,
even if I disagree with them.(I'm a full range driver Fan, who's gonna embrace EnABL. and expect to
be JUBALated by the results).
I employ two pictures (a set by my desk at work, and a set at home)in my life to serve the same function,
ie make me relook at a thing, problem etc, when I find my vision is becoming distorted by "belly button fluff",
the humerous picture is the origional illustration for "Canto III, line 9" from Dantes Divine Comeday,
the other is the 1994 Pulitzer prize picture taken by Kevin Carter.
This is my own two peneth worth (two cents worth for our Imperial using cousins, who Embraced base 10 monetery system
while we were still using LSD legaly)
Any way for a bit of fun how about a what measurement system is best, I propose the "Blue Bomb" system,
this is based on the 2ltr blue plastic bottles my favorite Cider comes in (nothing but class that Marce), the beauty
of this sytem is not only does it provide a measurment of distance (between 3 to 5 bottles per yard, depending on
volume of contents remaining in said bottle) but provides a metric on the difficulty of the build by multiplying
the total numbers of bottles consumed divided by the number of days spent building said cabinets, (0.1 = easy build 25=Curvey Changs, in my case).
Of course we'd trhen have to discuss the bottles used as a base for the bottle based system.🙂
I would tend to disagree with some peoples assesment of some of MJL21193 post's,
I rather think he is playing the role of a "Court Jester" (No offence meant John)
in the medievil political sense, and as such take his comments on board in that spirit,
even if I disagree with them.(I'm a full range driver Fan, who's gonna embrace EnABL. and expect to
be JUBALated by the results).
I employ two pictures (a set by my desk at work, and a set at home)in my life to serve the same function,
ie make me relook at a thing, problem etc, when I find my vision is becoming distorted by "belly button fluff",
the humerous picture is the origional illustration for "Canto III, line 9" from Dantes Divine Comeday,
the other is the 1994 Pulitzer prize picture taken by Kevin Carter.
This is my own two peneth worth (two cents worth for our Imperial using cousins, who Embraced base 10 monetery system
while we were still using LSD legaly)
Any way for a bit of fun how about a what measurement system is best, I propose the "Blue Bomb" system,
this is based on the 2ltr blue plastic bottles my favorite Cider comes in (nothing but class that Marce), the beauty
of this sytem is not only does it provide a measurment of distance (between 3 to 5 bottles per yard, depending on
volume of contents remaining in said bottle) but provides a metric on the difficulty of the build by multiplying
the total numbers of bottles consumed divided by the number of days spent building said cabinets, (0.1 = easy build 25=Curvey Changs, in my case).
Of course we'd trhen have to discuss the bottles used as a base for the bottle based system.🙂
Bob Brines said:
Yes, this is true. And this is why we must use scientific instrumentation to reveal the reality. Hears aren’t perfect nor the brain is. So, MDF sounds dull or Ply sound bright? Which is the good one? And why the wrong one sounds dull or bright?
I don’t understand a bit of the post of marce, but this could be because of my ignorance is so deep that I’ve never read a line of the writings of Dante. But I fell this wouldn’t affect my life so much as it could if I’d never read a line of electronics textbooks.😀
Cheers
Larry.
My appologies Larry, In my way I was comparing some of MJL's posts as reminiscent, of the role a medievel jesters role in the political climate at that time. The reference to the two pictures were saying the same thing even more analagously.
What I was trying to get a cross was it helps to have somthing to put things in perspective, and look at things differently.
Dantes quote is "All hope abandon , ye who enter hear" (Pun intended).
My sense of humour is rather strange and often only punny to me it seems, which is why I'm sat here designing stuff rather than being a comedian.
The last paragraphs were trying to point out that we will have differing opinions whatever.
The picture by Kevin Carter, realy puts life in perspective IMHO.
What I was trying to get a cross was it helps to have somthing to put things in perspective, and look at things differently.
Dantes quote is "All hope abandon , ye who enter hear" (Pun intended).
My sense of humour is rather strange and often only punny to me it seems, which is why I'm sat here designing stuff rather than being a comedian.
The last paragraphs were trying to point out that we will have differing opinions whatever.
The picture by Kevin Carter, realy puts life in perspective IMHO.
marce said:
No, apologize needed, I like people with this kind of a sense of umor and mine is stranger than yours, possibly...
But what I stated about my ignorance about Dante Alighieri and his writings is really true... indeed... 😀
So you think we must abbandon the topic becouse we get no hope on solving this controversy? Is there no chance? Yes, I can agree... 😀
Nevertheless, I find this topic very interesting. Isn't it?
Cheers
Larry.
Hi,
part of the box material problem is stiffness, or rather, the lack of it.
MDF is not particularly stiff relative to the same thickness of plywood (along the grain), but probably closer to across the grain plywood.
Some materials are very stiff when used at the same thickness as these wood based alternatives.
The next part of the problem is internal damping. MDF is well damped, plywood less so, aluminium and most of the metals ring due to lack of internal damping.
Some materials can be engineered into lightweight panels that vary the ratio of damping to weight to thickness.
I suspect that lack of stiffness allows movement and that lack of damping prolongs the ring making for bright as against dull.
Changes these parameters for all the combinations:
GRP/carbon fibre RP, Aerolam, pressed aluminium, plastic (pure and loaded), various wood boards, etc.
part of the box material problem is stiffness, or rather, the lack of it.
MDF is not particularly stiff relative to the same thickness of plywood (along the grain), but probably closer to across the grain plywood.
Some materials are very stiff when used at the same thickness as these wood based alternatives.
The next part of the problem is internal damping. MDF is well damped, plywood less so, aluminium and most of the metals ring due to lack of internal damping.
Some materials can be engineered into lightweight panels that vary the ratio of damping to weight to thickness.
I suspect that lack of stiffness allows movement and that lack of damping prolongs the ring making for bright as against dull.
Changes these parameters for all the combinations:
GRP/carbon fibre RP, Aerolam, pressed aluminium, plastic (pure and loaded), various wood boards, etc.
You're speaking my language Andrew.
The metals are pretty good actually IMO, at least from a technical POV. It was GM who fired me up about this one a few months back. The material might ring like a bell, but the resonance modes are way up above the main cabinet passband (front-horns etc excepted of course), so they're unlikely to be excited. I'd love to build something from 12 - 14ga CRS. My money is that it would be just about ideal, especially for a pipe-horn or similar. Look good too, if you like the Festival of Britain look. Picture it: brushed effect with chrome cheek-pieces (or walnut or similar). Art deco does speakers. 🙂
The metals are pretty good actually IMO, at least from a technical POV. It was GM who fired me up about this one a few months back. The material might ring like a bell, but the resonance modes are way up above the main cabinet passband (front-horns etc excepted of course), so they're unlikely to be excited. I'd love to build something from 12 - 14ga CRS. My money is that it would be just about ideal, especially for a pipe-horn or similar. Look good too, if you like the Festival of Britain look. Picture it: brushed effect with chrome cheek-pieces (or walnut or similar). Art deco does speakers. 🙂
AndrewT said:
I always thot that too, but research during these endless MDF vrs plywood debates has turned up a lot indicating that (good) plywood is actually better damped than MDF.
This, and the comments from listeners during our MDF box vrs plywood box, are consistent with the contention that stored energy in the MDF box are obscuring the low level detail... the plywood boxes were not described as bright, but that there was more happening. Some thot that there was too much happening and were more comfortable with the MDF, but the more experienced ears found that it correlated with the music and gave greater downward dynamic range (similar to what EnABL does).
dave
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