Saturnus said:
Hi John, I see you're still in good sharp shape😀 and hi to you also saturnus!
Cool down guys, if it comes down to year dropping, I've been working in the lacquer business for 20 years😎 I've been working all over the world, including North America.
There is a difference in the tech/chemistry language between Europe and America that made it hard to understand customers needs if coming from "good old Europe" (and by all means UK also)
Cheers
Just to add to the confusion, the PVA glue I use is brown in colour (dries tan), presumably owing to the high solids content.
In Canada (which nominally includes most of MJL21103's homeland, Toronto being somewhat dubious), we use a mixture of both metric and Imperial - I grant you that it can get confusing. Plywood, for example, is sold using Imperial (feet-inches) measurements for length and width; and metric for thickness!
Regards.
Aengus
In Canada (which nominally includes most of MJL21103's homeland, Toronto being somewhat dubious), we use a mixture of both metric and Imperial - I grant you that it can get confusing. Plywood, for example, is sold using Imperial (feet-inches) measurements for length and width; and metric for thickness!
Regards.
Aengus
MJL21193 said:
Possibly because you have a particular criteria; ergo what you consider superior, is, by a alternative stanadard / approach, inferior. The two camps tend to fall loosely into 'speakers as musical instruments' and 'speakers as precision reproducers.' Both approaches are IMO valid by their own standards, but those who fall into a particular camp often refuse to accept the other has any validity at all, which is a shame.
With my scientific hat on, I fall into the latter category, as it's more 'accurate' by most definitions. But if I chuck that off (and sometimes I do), and want to go for sheer musical enjoyment over forensic accuracy, I also find the former a very persuasive argument, and solid woods, assuming they are used carefully by someone who knows exactly what they are doing, are often very good indeed for this type of apprach -better than sheet materials. It's also worth noting for example that drive-units don't sound like the sound-board of a piano. Wood does.
😀
Would that an 8in (or whatever) cone could exactly reproduce the effect & sonics of an 8ft long curved piece of wood.
Would that an 8in (or whatever) cone could exactly reproduce the effect & sonics of an 8ft long curved piece of wood.
for the record...
at cain and cain, we use a mixture of solid and ply...and even industrial grade particle board for a few pieces. correct, that the solid pieces are strips glued together. they are implimented in such a fashion that they can flex with age.
any musical instrument has a mixture of woods in different places, all with a very specific acoustic function. it takes a LONG freaking time to figure out the ideal.
as has been the case with instument construction for many eons, trial and error is the only way to arrive at a SOUL pleasing solution.
the whole multi million industry of overly engineered strad copies out there I never stop laughing at. trying to use "science" to make a musical instrument.
my argument is that simply, a speaker straddles the fence between traditionally seperatable concepts. good speaker lies somewhere inbetween a laboratory instrument and a musical instrument.
we have such a globally dicotymous culture. THAT is what is dumb. this OR that. Nothing in between? ok then, go live with your dicotymous this and that. you will never get the other thing.
that other thing IS what you are looking for, whether you know it or not. I am not in the business of making pure, mechanical-acoustic, human plucked musical instruments (though I have made a clavichord for myself as a side project). I am also not in the business of making laboritory instruments.
On a full range DIY audio forum, I doubt any of us are in the hobby of making laboritory instuments. therefore, we are making a mixture between a lab instrument and a musical instrument.
I lie firmly within the more musically focused side of that pursuit, though I tend to keep a "studio" aesthetic in mind when I am tweaking my sound. then again, I keep alot of things in mind when I am tweaking the final sound. All of us try to strike a balance in some form or another. to tell the truth as much as possible. nothing can or should be perfect.
back to the topic at hand, as a general rule though, solid for the driver mount, which is decoupled in some fashion from the plys (of various densities) for the rest. this tends to work well.
it is generally a bad idea I think to make an entire speaker enclosure out of all solid wood. especially very hard woods which will crack with age. the tone will change dramatically based upon the humiditiy (rather than subtly, as is the case for a ply enclosure).
this tonal change happens when the panels are changing shape, pulling the other panels in the enclosure up to a higher pitch from the stress. in this case, the higher pitches are not necessarily of a lower amplitude. the suckers will ring till they break apart. that is, most all solid wood speakers I have heard of.
Clark
at cain and cain, we use a mixture of solid and ply...and even industrial grade particle board for a few pieces. correct, that the solid pieces are strips glued together. they are implimented in such a fashion that they can flex with age.
any musical instrument has a mixture of woods in different places, all with a very specific acoustic function. it takes a LONG freaking time to figure out the ideal.
as has been the case with instument construction for many eons, trial and error is the only way to arrive at a SOUL pleasing solution.
the whole multi million industry of overly engineered strad copies out there I never stop laughing at. trying to use "science" to make a musical instrument.
my argument is that simply, a speaker straddles the fence between traditionally seperatable concepts. good speaker lies somewhere inbetween a laboratory instrument and a musical instrument.
we have such a globally dicotymous culture. THAT is what is dumb. this OR that. Nothing in between? ok then, go live with your dicotymous this and that. you will never get the other thing.
that other thing IS what you are looking for, whether you know it or not. I am not in the business of making pure, mechanical-acoustic, human plucked musical instruments (though I have made a clavichord for myself as a side project). I am also not in the business of making laboritory instruments.
On a full range DIY audio forum, I doubt any of us are in the hobby of making laboritory instuments. therefore, we are making a mixture between a lab instrument and a musical instrument.
I lie firmly within the more musically focused side of that pursuit, though I tend to keep a "studio" aesthetic in mind when I am tweaking my sound. then again, I keep alot of things in mind when I am tweaking the final sound. All of us try to strike a balance in some form or another. to tell the truth as much as possible. nothing can or should be perfect.
back to the topic at hand, as a general rule though, solid for the driver mount, which is decoupled in some fashion from the plys (of various densities) for the rest. this tends to work well.
it is generally a bad idea I think to make an entire speaker enclosure out of all solid wood. especially very hard woods which will crack with age. the tone will change dramatically based upon the humiditiy (rather than subtly, as is the case for a ply enclosure).
this tonal change happens when the panels are changing shape, pulling the other panels in the enclosure up to a higher pitch from the stress. in this case, the higher pitches are not necessarily of a lower amplitude. the suckers will ring till they break apart. that is, most all solid wood speakers I have heard of.
Clark
Saturnus said:
I can't teach you, you know everything already.
pinkmouse said:
Google "yellow carpenter's glue"
peterbrorsson said:
Peter!
😉
"And I thank you for those items that you sent me
The monkey and the plywood violin" - Leonard Cohen, First We Take Manhattan
So there you have it.
BTW Saturnus, you may be the ultimate woodworker, but with regards to spelling...
The monkey and the plywood violin" - Leonard Cohen, First We Take Manhattan
So there you have it.
BTW Saturnus, you may be the ultimate woodworker, but with regards to spelling...
I'd bet his spelling in Danish is significantly better than mine, at least (based on the fact that his English is way better than my Danish).
Scottmoose said:
Hi Scot,
When I said superior results, I meant build quality, not sonics. I really don't believe there's enough of a difference in the way a design sounds when you use any of these materials. The bigger source of colouration is the design itself.
From what I've read here, most want to use solid as a shortcut - to avoid the raw edge of plywood or a paint finish on MDF. Anyone who is looking for an easy speaker build, should avoid solid wood.
I have the knowledge, skill and ability to build with solid wood, but I don't. Why is that?
Re: for the record...
Hi Clark,
You are in touch with the limitations of using solid wood. Obviously a man who knows a thing or two about the subject at hand.
blumenco said:
Hi Clark,
You are in touch with the limitations of using solid wood. Obviously a man who knows a thing or two about the subject at hand.
Re: Re: for the record...
My apologies. In jumping on you earlier, I thought that you had taken one side of the dichotomous 'argument' (and I took offense at one word also).
Seconded...
blumenco said:
My apologies. In jumping on you earlier, I thought that you had taken one side of the dichotomous 'argument' (and I took offense at one word also).
MJL21193 said:
Seconded...
Apparently "SCD" hasn't heard the news re: solid wood being unsuitable for speaker enclosures. His are both both sonically and visually beautiful. Most participants at this summers 4th annual Vancouver Isl DIY fest would ,I'm sure agree!
Don
Don
doorman said:
Hi Don,
This is not "news". SCD is being very selective in the wood he uses and understands what's required to work with solid. He didn't learn that overnight, this is learn by experience lessons.
I'm sure that he has built some boxes (perhaps early on) that suffered from some of the problems associated with solid wood (warping, cracks).
Generally, warping and cracks due to drying out and shrinking are not an issue with sheet stock.
bluntness,
sorry for it. the word that is, that I used earlier.
I think that solids are very viable for speaker construction. for certain parts. a thing to keep in mind is that solids expand a decent amount (depending upon the species) across the grain, but negligible amount along the grain.
imagine the parts that you are engineering expanding/contracting in 3d, and there you go. certain shapes are viable, certain ones not. importantly, it is useful to think of a part that it might split, even to practically fall apart. will it still serve its intended function? if not, if it will leak air, look like crap, etc. then don't use solid for that part.
I personally think that the abby is a work of very fine, musical art. considering the design, the way that terry arrived at it, the fact that it should not work worth a damn given our current amility to simulate enclosures, and the longevity of the speakers, even with a large portion of them solid wood, it is hard to consider them as anything but a steal for the price.
Terry sure left a rich legacy. i am in continual debt and awe of his existence on this planet. as a passionate, musical creature. a close friend.
I recently set up a shrine to him on top of my piano. some candles, a photo of him, the album cover: herb albert's whipped cream and other delights..." you get the point. I light the candles when I turn on my tube amps. HA!
without going into too much detail about the cain-cain product line so as not to blow all the company secrets, suffice it to say that there is certainly a mixture of solids and ply. parts you would not think are ply are and little tidbits here and there you would not think are solid in fact are...
sorry for it. the word that is, that I used earlier.
I think that solids are very viable for speaker construction. for certain parts. a thing to keep in mind is that solids expand a decent amount (depending upon the species) across the grain, but negligible amount along the grain.
imagine the parts that you are engineering expanding/contracting in 3d, and there you go. certain shapes are viable, certain ones not. importantly, it is useful to think of a part that it might split, even to practically fall apart. will it still serve its intended function? if not, if it will leak air, look like crap, etc. then don't use solid for that part.
I personally think that the abby is a work of very fine, musical art. considering the design, the way that terry arrived at it, the fact that it should not work worth a damn given our current amility to simulate enclosures, and the longevity of the speakers, even with a large portion of them solid wood, it is hard to consider them as anything but a steal for the price.
Terry sure left a rich legacy. i am in continual debt and awe of his existence on this planet. as a passionate, musical creature. a close friend.
I recently set up a shrine to him on top of my piano. some candles, a photo of him, the album cover: herb albert's whipped cream and other delights..." you get the point. I light the candles when I turn on my tube amps. HA!
without going into too much detail about the cain-cain product line so as not to blow all the company secrets, suffice it to say that there is certainly a mixture of solids and ply. parts you would not think are ply are and little tidbits here and there you would not think are solid in fact are...
doorman said:
Yes, but as SCD said on another post:
"I am currently making my cabinets from fine grain first growth Douglas-fir. The wood is well dried and stable I have had it stored in my house for approximately ten years.My house is stable year round at aproximatwely 38% humidity. The wood grain is extremely uniform with greater than 25 growth rings to the inch."
I'm not sure that most people here would be able to wait 10 years to build their cabinets, and he obviously knows what he is doing. More power to him. And it saves from all that tricky veneering or painting...😀
A case of Exception probat regulam (or "the exception proves the rule"), I think. But what is the rule
?
No wonder he is so nonchalant about building speaker cabs.- Status
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