Cruz in CL I see a lot of sub drivers and amps for sale for very reasonable prices. Is the anything different between car and home drivers and amp?
Hi,
There are some good value car subs for home use.
Car amplifiers though are useless for home use.
rgds, sreten.
There are some good value car subs for home use.
Car amplifiers though are useless for home use.
rgds, sreten.
yup - the car and even the smallest room you're likely to want to place an audio or surround system in are substantially different acoustically, and the loudspeaker transducers are built to different standards - not the least of which is the amount of abuse and environmental (heat / humidity) extremes they're expected to endure .
Of course, car audio products will "work" in the strictest sense of the word, but the budget priced models are particularly unlikely to sound as musical in the home as similarly priced home audio driver might.
Amps, could be a different story sonically, but again, they are designed to operate in a much different environment. - i.e. on lower voltage/higher current DC power supply available from the combination of battery and alternator, and many have more circuitry involved in voltage conversion when operating at higher than nominal 12V rails, and may often include crossover functions that might not be required.
You can buy class D amps and SMPS now capable of delivering up to several hundreds of watts, or multiple channels on a board with a smaller footprint than a CD case, for less than $100
Of course, car audio products will "work" in the strictest sense of the word, but the budget priced models are particularly unlikely to sound as musical in the home as similarly priced home audio driver might.
Amps, could be a different story sonically, but again, they are designed to operate in a much different environment. - i.e. on lower voltage/higher current DC power supply available from the combination of battery and alternator, and many have more circuitry involved in voltage conversion when operating at higher than nominal 12V rails, and may often include crossover functions that might not be required.
You can buy class D amps and SMPS now capable of delivering up to several hundreds of watts, or multiple channels on a board with a smaller footprint than a CD case, for less than $100
Biggest problem is getting a good 12vdc source.
The only way a car audio amp would make sense in the home is if you had a deep cycle battery and a trickle charger on hand. That way if you used it moderately for a couple hours a day, it could recharge the rest of the day. Any other power supply is going to cost more that it would take to just get a proper home amp.
Nothing wrong with car audio drivers. Biggest problem is a lot of them are cheap crap, but if you can get the T/S parameters they're probably decent and usable.
The only way a car audio amp would make sense in the home is if you had a deep cycle battery and a trickle charger on hand. That way if you used it moderately for a couple hours a day, it could recharge the rest of the day. Any other power supply is going to cost more that it would take to just get a proper home amp.
Nothing wrong with car audio drivers. Biggest problem is a lot of them are cheap crap, but if you can get the T/S parameters they're probably decent and usable.
Last edited:
I had a homeless car amp and subwoofer that I used in the house occasionally, just ran the amp off a computer power supply, made enough noise.
sub was a fairly cheap 10" dual voice coil driver in a sealed box. To me it sounded much better, lower and "tighter" than my (again probably pretty cheap) harman kardon 10" ported sub when comparing the two.
I'm planning on using car subs for my next project as drivers aren't that easy to get in Australia, and car subs on ebay are crazy cheap.
Slightly off topic what is a cheap (gotta stop using that word) high powered class D amp for running subs in-house? I have a few "class T" amps and love them, but need a bit more power for subs, lots of amps I see say they have a frequency range of 20 - 20khz, and I have read that most amps have a high pass filter at ~20hz to avoid infrasound and sending DC to voice coils. I want to make sure I'm sending the sub as many low notes as possible.
apologies for all the technical jargon
sub was a fairly cheap 10" dual voice coil driver in a sealed box. To me it sounded much better, lower and "tighter" than my (again probably pretty cheap) harman kardon 10" ported sub when comparing the two.
I'm planning on using car subs for my next project as drivers aren't that easy to get in Australia, and car subs on ebay are crazy cheap.
Slightly off topic what is a cheap (gotta stop using that word) high powered class D amp for running subs in-house? I have a few "class T" amps and love them, but need a bit more power for subs, lots of amps I see say they have a frequency range of 20 - 20khz, and I have read that most amps have a high pass filter at ~20hz to avoid infrasound and sending DC to voice coils. I want to make sure I'm sending the sub as many low notes as possible.
apologies for all the technical jargon
Car subs can be use in the home but not all are suitable. What you have to take note of is their Q. Some are too high.
I purchased two old school kicker subwoofers from a swapmeet for 25 dollars. They looked almost new. The T/S parameters (both original and measured) showed they wanted a HUGE 5ft3 sealed cabinet. Because of the transfer function of a vehicle, they recommended 1.75 ft3. I built a very solid cabinet just under 2 ft3 and it sounded really nice in the house.
I got a pair of Sony car subs for free. They sounded ok in car sealed. The T/S specs show they would work much better in a normal sized ported enclosure. I have one in a .75 ft3 sealed, and it's ok as an extra sub in a "multi sub" set up.
I have entered some cheap car sub T/S parameters in winisd before, and gotten some VERY odd results. Obviously not designed by or for true speaker building enthusiasts.
The subs I do have pretty much measured as expected against sims. (nearfield holmimpulse)
You need a very good power supply, and the high amperage 12v supplies aren't cheap.
I have a 7 amp regulated supply and it probably would be lucky to run a 100 watt or bigger sub amp at sustained high volume levels.
Most home sub amps are designed to run off 24v or higher power supplies.
If you have measuring equipment, go ahead and experiment on cheap stuff.
Speakers are speakers. It's about the t/s PARAMETERS...
I got a pair of Sony car subs for free. They sounded ok in car sealed. The T/S specs show they would work much better in a normal sized ported enclosure. I have one in a .75 ft3 sealed, and it's ok as an extra sub in a "multi sub" set up.
I have entered some cheap car sub T/S parameters in winisd before, and gotten some VERY odd results. Obviously not designed by or for true speaker building enthusiasts.
The subs I do have pretty much measured as expected against sims. (nearfield holmimpulse)
You need a very good power supply, and the high amperage 12v supplies aren't cheap.
I have a 7 amp regulated supply and it probably would be lucky to run a 100 watt or bigger sub amp at sustained high volume levels.
Most home sub amps are designed to run off 24v or higher power supplies.
If you have measuring equipment, go ahead and experiment on cheap stuff.
Speakers are speakers. It's about the t/s PARAMETERS...
I was cleaning the shop today and found a JBL GTO 10" subwoofer. I have a test cab I stick it in and do some testing.
Home/cinema and Car Audio are quite different requirements and performance. Though I have used both home and car audio in opposite environments, generally, and this is a huge generalization, I've found that home audio subs are designed with a lower FS, and car audio subs are designed to work in smaller enclosures, especially when it comes to sealed.
Car audio amps, in terms of SQ, I think can do as good as an average home audio amp, however it's the 12v thing you need to get around. Personally, I just ended up buying an old Arcam amp from ebay and had done, rather than using my car audio amp.
I have used Peerless and Sundown in both home and car audio, my Morel speakers I had to rip of my car and are now used in an over-simplistic OB set up, but still i prefer them to my home audio speakers (monitor Audio).
Much as I'd want to try the likes of Dayton and AE in my car, the recommendation of near or greater than 2 cubes sealed puts me off. As for using car audio in the home, i'm less fussy. I would say that specifically designed home audio subs might do a touch better than you're average car audio sub for SQ. I Would use the likes of Morel or Hybrid Audio car subs in my home audio set up, but brands JL, Rockford, Kicker, i'd rather use the likes of a dedicated home audio brand like Dayton or Peerless.
Car audio amps, in terms of SQ, I think can do as good as an average home audio amp, however it's the 12v thing you need to get around. Personally, I just ended up buying an old Arcam amp from ebay and had done, rather than using my car audio amp.
I have used Peerless and Sundown in both home and car audio, my Morel speakers I had to rip of my car and are now used in an over-simplistic OB set up, but still i prefer them to my home audio speakers (monitor Audio).
Much as I'd want to try the likes of Dayton and AE in my car, the recommendation of near or greater than 2 cubes sealed puts me off. As for using car audio in the home, i'm less fussy. I would say that specifically designed home audio subs might do a touch better than you're average car audio sub for SQ. I Would use the likes of Morel or Hybrid Audio car subs in my home audio set up, but brands JL, Rockford, Kicker, i'd rather use the likes of a dedicated home audio brand like Dayton or Peerless.
Last edited:
To make a generalization, high end car audio subs focus on high power handeling, and high excursion. They can be beautifully designed machines, however high power and high excursion require stiffer stronger heavier cones, which lowers fs, multiple stiff spiders and thick rubber surrounds bring fs back up and lowers vas while lowering efficiency. If you have oodels of power (inuke 6000Dsp is a good bargain) then you can make some mean subs for home theater or music with DD, XXX, TC Sounds, fi/AA ect. Some work well in horns and tapped horns, others can go sub 20hz at impressive volume, and some are just neat, where else can you find 6.5" drivers with 16mm xmax? Cheap bigbox car audio usually isn't worth it in a car or anywhere else, with a few exceptions (Sony, Kicker) so long as you know what your actually getting and ignore most of the "specs".
The biggest difference in design is that in an automobile you have access to a 180hp+ gas generator and pretty much unlimited amperage @12-15v. It's not uncommon to see multiple overwound 300amp+ alternators, multiple runs of 0ga cable, and a battery bank just to power multiple 3000 to 10000w amplifiers. Your home does not have this advantage, and car audio designs exploit the heck out of that because why would they not?
The biggest difference in design is that in an automobile you have access to a 180hp+ gas generator and pretty much unlimited amperage @12-15v. It's not uncommon to see multiple overwound 300amp+ alternators, multiple runs of 0ga cable, and a battery bank just to power multiple 3000 to 10000w amplifiers. Your home does not have this advantage, and car audio designs exploit the heck out of that because why would they not?
I thought about that Jeff and have my dads old computer in the shop. I'll have to check on the amps though. The cap amps draw a **** load of amps as 12 volts.
Two questions here: What is your idea of cheap, and how much power do you need.
A Hypex UcD180 or UcD400 module with an SMPS400 psu and cable set gives imo an incredible good bang for the buck. That'll run you about €200+postange for the 180W module, or €230 or so for the 400W one.
If you're on the cheap, you can get the Hypex UcD32 modules. They're on end sale now at €50 including psu. They need a buffer and regulator module, that'll run you $30 on ebay. They're 2X30W and can be bridged.
Oh, and you need an enclosure.
Johan-Kr
Yeah, the average amperage for a PC power supply is around 15A @12V, some more, some less. A lot car amplifiers run @ around 20A, that is if they are about 100 or 150 watts per 2 channels, so it should work, it has been done by others, not me. Of course if you talking 300 of or 500 watts (which isn't uncommon in the car audio world) , it will draw a good bit more. Another thing that is interesting is that most of these amps are designed to draw around 14V and not 12V, that's watt their advertised wattage is based on.
Cheap for me is ~$100 (AUD or USD) for the amp and power supply, might need to increase this budget a bit (it will partly be a function of driver and cabinet cost) and still need to work out crossovers etc.
Assembled Class D Amp Board TDA7498 Subwoofer Amplifier Board 150W Module 1pc
not really sure how much power I need, I have some 50W per channel stereo class T amps that I will use after I make my sub/low boxes to see if they power them adequately, if they do I'll just stick with one of them. If I can get DVC subs cheap enough I can run each coil off a separate channel and use two of these amps, as I understand they don't like to be bridged.
You really don't want to parallel a DVC sub and then bridge the class T amps 😛
The UcD32 modules have an integrated PSU and sounds really good. They'll give a decent amount of power after bridging, but they won't give you any more power than the 50W stereo class T amp. The PSU in the UcD32 is limited to 70W, so the most you can tap out of the amp will be around 55W or so in bridge mode.
That ready made sub amp module you're linking to will give you much more power per dollar. It's probably not as high sound quality as the Hypex, but as you're using it for sub duty, it'll probably be okay.
Johan-Kr
The UcD32 modules have an integrated PSU and sounds really good. They'll give a decent amount of power after bridging, but they won't give you any more power than the 50W stereo class T amp. The PSU in the UcD32 is limited to 70W, so the most you can tap out of the amp will be around 55W or so in bridge mode.
That ready made sub amp module you're linking to will give you much more power per dollar. It's probably not as high sound quality as the Hypex, but as you're using it for sub duty, it'll probably be okay.
Johan-Kr
I mean I would give the left channel stereo amp the left signal to both inputs, then feed each (non bridged) output to each VC of the left hand sub, and same again but the other hand for the right channel.
If the system I'm considering passes the loud test with a car battery/step up converter then I'll just get a 24 volt SMPS or something.
I've done this. Using a spare 750W PSU. Combine all the 12v legs into one. Attach them to your connector of choice and mount on the PSU case. Add a resistor to provide a minimal load for the trigger/sense wire. PC power supplies provide pretty clean power too.
Mine used to run an old JBL 12" on a 500w craptastic Sony amp for years.
If you have the parts laying around, absolutely do it. It will make some sort of noise at least.
About the only parameter that matters much is the driver's resonance because that defines how low you can go. But in the process of making a durable driver for a car, that may be sacrificed (along with other sonic virtues), as wise others have already posted.
Just short of vintage age, inexpensive old 110v second-hand amps are just fine as long as the knobs haven't fallen off. So, better than a 12v unit, as wise others have cautioned.
Ben
Just short of vintage age, inexpensive old 110v second-hand amps are just fine as long as the knobs haven't fallen off. So, better than a 12v unit, as wise others have cautioned.
Ben
Last edited:
Ben,
1) You seem to be unaware of the Bag End "Infrasub", which uses processing to extend low frequency down in to the single digit range, using fairly typical, inexpensive, "off the shelf" Eminence drivers with a resonance above most of the pass-band the sub is designed for. The drivers Bag End uses (or has used, I have not looked at their product line in quite some time) have very little linear excursion capability, around 6mm Xmax, if I recall correctly.
Recent drivers are capable of four (or more) times the Bag End driver's excursion, a 12 db increase in level, which would result in LF below 40 Hz to sound (or feel...) four times as loud as the Infrasub, though I have heard people say they "feel" the Infrasub has plenty output, though the manufacturer does admit the single digit response is virtually inaudible :^).
2) My 35+ year old vintage Hafler DH-200 amplifier, inexpensively purchased around 20 years ago, started leaking a bit of DC output on the right channel a few years ago. As it was only a small fraction of a volt when I first measured it, I was not concerned, but last Tuesday (9/13/16) it burned out the right woofer in my 20+ year Tannoy PBM 6.5 near field studio monitor, it measured a bit over 5 VDC, only about 7 watts applied to the DCR of the Tannoy's woofer.
I used to use a Yamaha P-2200 driving the Tannoys, it had fabulous great big analog peak reading VU meters, the Tannoys easily handled it's 220 watt peaks. I scrapped the P-2200 twenty years ago, as it had blown most of it's output transistors, and replacements could not be found at the time. I wish I saved the meters, but had to pare down prior to my recent cross-country move from New Mexico to Florida.
The DH-200 likely just needs the PSU capacitors replaced, but I would not trust it anymore without also adding DC sensing speaker output protection circuits. Between the expense of replacing the big caps, the DC protection circuits, and the time to do that, I am much better off buying a brand new amp costing a few dollars more, which already has the DC protection circuits, creates a fraction of the heat, and has 10 dB more dynamic headroom with a 3 year warranty.
Just realized I have never had a failure of a 12V DC amp, and the ones in use in my shop (sold along with it) were 30+ years old.
Cheers,
Art
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.