Conversely, there are associations to certain music that brings up negative experiences and thus it's now unappealing although in the time it was great.
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Okay. Seems there is not much remarkable about a finding of dopamine being involved in music enjoyment. It might be more newsworthy if such were not the case. How much then does knowing about dopamine in relation to music illuminate our understanding of music having a 'hold over us?' Seems music enjoyment from that vantage is pretty much just like anything else?
Hi Markw4,
First of all please note that even if in my opinion it woulkd be already obvious I believe there is at least 1 good reason for the following true premise: please note that my reply is without the slightest trace of controversy, but it is only for a comparison of purely intellectual ideas and no personalization at all.
My sincere thanks in advance for that.
IMHO It seems to me you asking million dollars question, for an answer of others while instead you could deepening on your own and then kindly provide us with the results of your research.
However, first of all by doing your "simple" question you have completely bypassed my previous premise you've quoted: "We are simplifying a complex mechanism".
Very complex.
Your actual simplification is excessive. IMHO
Furthermore, as generally speaking previously mentioned about someone do not read posted link content, it seems to me that you did not read any content of the previous posted links, not even your own. 🙄
Anyway, simplifying again the concept: human actions derive from two basic psychological, mental and environmental conditions; the need and the reward.
Often the anticipatory idea of being able to be rewarded is stronger than the reward itself.
The player who plays video-games must experience not only simply pleasure, but an intense pleasure and also a mental state of hyper-excitement during the game itself in order to "something" happen.
The modulation of dopamine while listening to Music is not derived only to simply feeling pleasure, but to that pleasure happens, because it is so intense, what evokes in limbic systems, as the current mental state of the listener, et cetera.
If you are an electronic engineer (I don't know this, just sayin') you will truly be aware of the fact that the subject you graduated is an extremely complex and articulated subject that not everyone (indeed few) understand on the fly and know it its deep and practical-theoric implications: do you believe that human psycho-bio-chemistry is simpler? 🙂
Dopamine as a neurotransmitter and hormone is involved in many things, good and bad. It's an indication of how much we really don't know about the way the brain works - it's a bit like saying electricity is involded in how a computer works. It really doesn't tell us a lot - the associated mechanisms that dopamine works with, and the location of those mechanisms, is where the subtlety lies.
Hi ulogon:
Thank you for your very detailed reply. IMHO your summary of the science is indeed uncontroversial.
However, I think you may not have correctly understood my reasons for asking you some questions.
To respond specifically to your question quoted above, engineering, psychology, medicine, etc., all rely on simplified models of reality. Speaking of engineers in particular, they are interested in practicality. The value of a model is in its practical utility, especially its usefulness in predicting and or shaping the future in some way.
What I am wondering is how much practical utility the subject matter of this thread brings. I wonder about it after having read David Huron's book, Sweet Anticipation, from cover to cover. Have also read a great deal of the behavioral and cognitive psychology literature, and worked in high tech medicine and medical research for roughly 30 years. In other words, I do appreciate complexity, and do use simplified models. However, in the field of psychology in particular, a number of models have been proposed that have not turned out to especially useful. Take Haidt's Moral Foundations Theory, for example. Interesting, but IMHO it hasn't proven to be particularly useful.
My view at this point: what we know about music enjoyment from a scientific perspective mostly seems to be of academic interest. If I need music for some practical purpose, in most cases I will go to a composer/songwriter with a good track record, not to limbic system scientist.
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Up until ~100 years ago, to hear music one had to participate in a social event, and quite often one had to take part in making it. Today's solo, pure listening modes (especially of old recordings repeatedly) probably ought to be separated from music-making, live concerts, and even dance party music. (Hence the brought-back-memory stuff.) So there is the artistic and intellectual appeal of structure (melody/rhyme, meter/rhythm, repetition/breaking-expectation, etc.), and then there is the evolutionary and social utility of communication/community-building (gibbons singing, cavemen chanting, societies' mating rituals, etc.). Which of these two "has such a hold over us"? How related are they?
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Because his ghost may be whispering in your ear. Every morning while I'm waiting for my turn, after my 8 cups of coffee kicks in, this furry freak just stares at me with the expression that says, " wait your turn Fawna, if you wanna, or Dora will kick you to the floora". At least he leaves the lid down, even if he doesn't flush!
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Same for me @EdGr The song might not be great but it sure brings back strong feelings of time and place. Only smells can rival that effect.
Songs about trees forming a union, caves of ice, and trying to lead a revolution with a guitar; how can music NOT have a hold on us? Add orgasmic solos and searing vocals...
One thing that puzzles me though, as a fan of heavy metal (complex high tempo music, with intricate interplay between musicians), how can I equally be enthralled by single person, with a banjo, singing away on a stool?
Someone mentioned anticipation, one of the things I like is a passage of music that's then repeated, but slightly differently; or vocals that are repeated but with more expression the second (or third) time.
One thing that puzzles me though, as a fan of heavy metal (complex high tempo music, with intricate interplay between musicians), how can I equally be enthralled by single person, with a banjo, singing away on a stool?
Someone mentioned anticipation, one of the things I like is a passage of music that's then repeated, but slightly differently; or vocals that are repeated but with more expression the second (or third) time.
Hello,
May be this book will help to solve the problem:
https://www.amazon.com/This-Your-Br...t=&hvlocphy=9008166&hvtargid=pla-437609625252
Very interesting position on the main topic. Great to read.
May be this book will help to solve the problem:
https://www.amazon.com/This-Your-Br...t=&hvlocphy=9008166&hvtargid=pla-437609625252
Very interesting position on the main topic. Great to read.
It is simple......our brain is behind audio addiction. Music stimulates us. It can bring aggression or peace. Of course, perception of my point of view will vary from member to member of this forum. Many of them are not "audiophiles" but "system-philes".