Why crossover in the 1-4khz range?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
#601
dewardh said:
In any case I'm very much with Dick Olsher and Nelson Pass in the observation that the quality of a reproduction system is determined in the 1st Watt, not the 500th, and by my own that the "dynamics" of the reproduction chain are determined almost entirely at the console (or nowadays the DAW). One of the more frequent comments I used to hear about my ORION (when playing unedited 24 bit recordings) was the accuracy of the "dynamics" . . . and that without an "efficient" driver in sight. Granted, though, that they could not do the "blat" of trombones at twenty paces or saxophone-in-the-subway (both better not brought home in any case).
Click to expand...

>could you please explain further please ?

My exerience about subjective dynamic with low effcienty drivers in the mid & treble(around 85 db) is the more you go to 0 db, the less subjective dynamic you have.
I try to re explain why I believe in this, (sorry for my English) :

Getting the 105 DB level calibrate to match the zero gain of your amp in the reccordings maid in the studio console :

a little 3 to 5" mid driver e.g. at 85 db is limited in Xmax & temperature for its coil. If you have a powerfull amp which doesn't limit the driver, this last can not go after 100 to 105 db without big distorsion. Well you didn't listen to it at this level but need frequent peaks at this high level or greater. But those limitations will give distorsion and weak dynamic the louder you increase the volume (the nearer you go to 0 db = no attenuation)

Why? because if you have a middle level of listening equal to 85 db e.g. which seems common for small to middle listenings rooms : you will have you subjective dynamic when a peak go to 100 to 105 db but if in the reccording (assuming it matchs the reality event) the gap is bigger (the peaks needs to be 110 to 120 in relation to the same middle level of 85 db -which is the one on the midle volume of the live event for the demonstration- only a pro driver give you the real dynamic & without the distorsion due to the heat of the coil because the little driver go often near its limits !

Well those little hifi drivers needs current and more than the first watt : for my 85 db 5" : a 250 watts amp is not to big because the dynamic needed !

The danger is a lacke of subjective dynamic who involve the listener to increase the volume... but the little driver go never further than its limit of 100/105 db (Xmax, thermal distorsion, without talking of the changes in the XO iirc when thermal beginn to change the driver characteristics) and in the same time you increase the midlle volume of listening for e.g. 90 db instead the 80/85 db of before :

So here the dynamic is subjectivly less than before : the dynamic gap in db between the lower and the higher notes is littlier ! Your listen to just louder with more listening fatigue, more distorsion and you can hurt your ears whic are sensible to long high db listening (concerts , discotheque kills youe ears) but not or very less when big gap are allowed in dynamics with a lower middle level of listening.

Am I wrong with this demonstration? The error could be for example than most hifi speakers with the low efficienty what we uses most of the time are enough to play those dynamics peaks in normal rooms (not disotheques or outside where pro drivers are needed) without the distorsion I talk about in the medium & high fhz range.

My understanding is the hifi speakers maid for domestic hifi since 50 years are for diplomatic low level volume for flats and certainly not for a house in a desert without neighboors ! The main frustration comes from those limitations 😱 , with modern hifi drivers, ok you have détails, clearness, micro dynamics (with ScanSpeak, Seas, etc... ) but not the life of pro system allows. I surmise this is because the great dynamic of pro driver is given without listening fatigue (no thermal distorsion when used in domestic environment) and the dynamic gap is bigger than a hifi driver. Well you have the life, don't feel the need to push always the volume pots...

It's just an idea, and subjective experience without science and nore measurement. Notice I would prefer to be wrong as most of the time hifi drivers are better for sound reproduction (but... this lacke of life..... did you listen to a JBL Everest ?).

sorry for the terrible English, i tried to explain my though the simplier I 'm able to !
 
Last edited:
#603
Flaesh said:

but it's easy for reading))

I don't 🙁
one on audioheritage said M2 is better..
Click to expand...

I didn't listen the M2 but with the Everest you have a subjective impression of real & easy dynamic... confortable without drilling your ears and have punch in mid bass.... you just come back to your house, look at your speaker... and you cry !

(it's what I look for today, because most of time we speak about speakers which diseaper because good soundstage, i find more and more music disseaper also because the lacke of dynamic and mid bass in 99% with the off shelves speakers).

Sorry a little OT here, but to know what type of drivers could be easily used to match to this 800 hz to (more) tha 4 000 hz theory would help (me at least!)
 
Last edited:
#605
If only I can have the precision, smoothness, détails, soundstage, fast bass of my 85 DB Boston Lynnfield 400 L (with its little notch I added in the trebles at 4 khz 🙂 ) but with the punchier mid bass of the Everest with its fantastic dynamic... I could try beginning to think about buying a gun to resist to my neighbours !

Well reading all of you, i have always no idea ! Still thinking to Neo 8S because light and 94 db and construct around it one day, not sure to go for OB because can't go further than 1' of the front and side walls ! But want absolutly a dedicated mid-bass and a sealed bass below, because prefer smoother low end and most of the time the sealed bass instead vented ! Mid bass alone to allow life and rapid cone deplacement (10" sealed >?) But theory it's not real life... I know !

It's a little short to construct somrthing😀
 
Last edited:
#608
Eldam said:
if you have a middle level of listening equal to 85 db e.g. which seems common for small to middle listenings rooms : you will have you subjective dynamic when a peak go to 100 to 105 db but if in the reccording (assuming it matchs the reality event) the gap is bigger (the peaks needs to be 110 to 120 in relation to the same middle level of 85 db -which is the one on the midle volume of the live event for the demonstration
Click to expand...
Well, there's my point . . . when recording a symphony Eargle never sees that 110-120dB, and neither do I. I've put a peak reading SPL meter in the front row audience at rehearsals and not seen over 105 peak even when the "average" is at a solid 85dB. And even if there were higher peaks they'd be compressed out in the delivery in order to keep SNR high enough for home and automobile listening. And even then . . .

if 1 Watt gives you 85dB (from one speaker) then 100 gives you those 105dB peaks. Granted that 100 Watts continuous would quickly toast most small midrange drivers, but they don't see it. First; it's peak, not continuous, and second; most of the power goes to the woofer/mid-bass anyway . . . only a fraction of an "orchestral crescendo" goes to the midrange, and no single orchestral instrument/note is going to give you 105dB at an audience seat . . . try that for more than 30 seconds and the audience will cover their ears and start walking out (if at home any sane person would turn it down).
 
#611
Scott L said:
Greetings!
I'm curious as to why you would choose a di-pole mid-bass section, when your mid-range and subwoofer are mono-pole?
Click to expand...

When I model the dipole midbass and figure in my rooms gain, even dual 12's are not getting me to the very bottom. Only a monopole sub can do that and I expect a pretty smooth response since my room has proven to be pretty smooth below 40 hz.

50hz and up, things are all over the place so I'm predicting a much smoother in room response with dipole midbass. This section will also be fully active.

You might be right to question the monopole upper midrange section. The baffle is certainly wide enough to make a dipole feasible. The peak will certainly be manageable even with passives........but the wide baffle will effect power response won't it? Seems my most recent reading of Linkwitz and John's work indicates a narrow baffle.

Thank you. I think I'll put some more thought into the dipole mids. I could certainly add windows on either side of the MTM section and still maintain a rigid baffle.
 
#612
cut from same cloth

mayhem13 said:
When I model the dipole midbass and figure in my rooms gain, even dual 12's are not getting me to the very bottom. Only a monopole sub can do that and I expect a pretty smooth response since my room has proven to be pretty smooth below 40 hz.

50hz and up, things are all over the place so I'm predicting a much smoother in room response with dipole midbass. This section will also be fully active.

You might be right to question the monopole upper midrange section. The baffle is certainly wide enough to make a dipole feasible. The peak will certainly be manageable even with passives........but the wide baffle will effect power response won't it? Seems my most recent reading of Linkwitz and John's work indicates a narrow baffle.

Thank you. I think I'll put some more thought into the dipole mids. I could certainly add windows on either side of the MTM section and still maintain a rigid baffle.
Click to expand...

Actually, I was questioniong the use of [only] the di-pole mid-bass. I have never heard any kind of open baffle system that is acceptable for music.
Having said that, I do realize that we all hear things differently, and there certainly is a following for open baffle. But I just don't get it. Of course, I have also received negeative criticism for me using horns. I don't get that either because for me, they are the only devices I have heard that give me the dynamic response to allow the emotional conveyance in the music.
Lastly though: to each their own I say, and we can all still enjoy a cup of coffee together !
 
#613
Zvu said:
.. looking forward to see some measurements..
Click to expand...
mentioned nn china driver, 1 m horn-mic distance, u-mic, night 🙂 level.
don't know what is at 2.3k..
 

Attachments

  • nn14-1.png
    nn14-1.png
    69.1 KB · Views: 401
#614
Scott L said:
... there certainly is a following for open baffle. But I just don't get it. Of course, I have also received negeative criticism for me using horns. I don't get that either because for me, they are the only devices I have heard that give me the dynamic response to allow the emotional conveyance in the music.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you here - except waveguides instead of horns.
 
#620
Zvu said:
@ Eldam:

Then you should really check out the Echelons from Dan Neubecker: Introducing: Echelon

It looks like something you would be into.
Click to expand...

Thanks,

After read it : the xo is around 2/3 k hz... and the tweeter still a 1" : very near from what I listen today... beautifull cabinet, I'm sure the ears of my bankers will be not as open as the famous Echelon reccording device...😀

I was more in theory thinking about (was before the intteresting OP question) :
sealed bass, then dedicated mid-bass, then a mid around 1.5K to 5 K hz, then a ribbon. The only driver not to much expensive for me is the Neo8 (S or not) with EQ to go above the 3.5 khz with this driver. Two speaker give good feeling to read it : the last of Juhazzi fellow like the last in a different spirit (sealed) made by Studio Tech : notice both using NEO 8
But frankly I believe more and more DIY a speaker is more expensive than a good second hand : because research & development are never free, it's pleasing if you have the money for it only !

So why CD driver ?? to use horn & to xo below 1000 hz not for the high efficienty and its believed dynamic ?

Now I'm lost as I readed above than dynamic is more a question of beaming with horns than a dynamic allowed by the driver !
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom