Most of the system I use in my 92 Mercedes 32TE are considered Old School.
The Dashboard has Macrom 59.13 mids. (5,25" Morel made drivers with 3" voice coils) and Macrom TW28 tweeters (also Morel made)
The front doors has dual Macrom 59.17 midbass drivers (Morel made 6" drivers with 3" voice coils) in Jehnnert door panels (German made glassfiber panels covered in grey vinyl)
The rear doors have Macrom 54.10 (4" Morel made coaxes with 2" voice coils and 1,1" tweeters.
Amps are 1 pcs RF Punch 400x4 (4x50Wrms for dash and rear doors)
and 1 pcs RF Punch 200x2 (runs in 2 ohm at 2x200Wrms for the front doors)
Head unit are a Alpine CVA-1000R controlling a pair of PRA-H400 signal processors.
Music source besides radio are a Alpine 6 disk changer capable of reading cd roms containing mp3 files. (the newest part of the system)
No subwoofer are installed yet, but I have some Rockford Punch Power DVC 15`s on my shelves so I will probably end up with one in a 2,5cuft seaed box powered by a RF power 500M amp I also have ready to use.
The sound did even surpass my expectations and are clearly better even WITHOUT subs than anything I have heard of the new stuff I have heard locally the last 5 years. Extremely clean and very punchy.
The Dashboard has Macrom 59.13 mids. (5,25" Morel made drivers with 3" voice coils) and Macrom TW28 tweeters (also Morel made)
The front doors has dual Macrom 59.17 midbass drivers (Morel made 6" drivers with 3" voice coils) in Jehnnert door panels (German made glassfiber panels covered in grey vinyl)
The rear doors have Macrom 54.10 (4" Morel made coaxes with 2" voice coils and 1,1" tweeters.
Amps are 1 pcs RF Punch 400x4 (4x50Wrms for dash and rear doors)
and 1 pcs RF Punch 200x2 (runs in 2 ohm at 2x200Wrms for the front doors)
Head unit are a Alpine CVA-1000R controlling a pair of PRA-H400 signal processors.
Music source besides radio are a Alpine 6 disk changer capable of reading cd roms containing mp3 files. (the newest part of the system)
No subwoofer are installed yet, but I have some Rockford Punch Power DVC 15`s on my shelves so I will probably end up with one in a 2,5cuft seaed box powered by a RF power 500M amp I also have ready to use.
The sound did even surpass my expectations and are clearly better even WITHOUT subs than anything I have heard of the new stuff I have heard locally the last 5 years. Extremely clean and very punchy.
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Uh, you posted in this thread and post #3 tells you!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/car-audio/135584-hi-comp-amps.html
THAT WAS A STEREO REVIEW ARTICLE COMPARING LOW PRICED CAR AMPS. I HAD COPIES THAT I MADE AT THE IUPUI LIBRARY OF THE COMPARISONS BUT THEY ARE LONG GONE. THE AMPS WERE MEASURED AT CLIPPING IN 1 CHANNEL. I BELIEVE THE P222 MEASURED THE HIGHEST AT 286 WATTS IF I RECALL. MUCH HIGHER THAN ADS POWER PLATE , ZEPCO, AND FOSGATE AMPS. ALPHASONIK P-225 CAME IN SECOND AT 180 WATTS BRIDGED IF I RECALL
Please avoid posting in all CAPS if you can.http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/site-announcements/167561-diyaudio-rules.html
Thanks for letting me join; my first post on here.
Was in the game from the late 70s until late 90s. I know what a Jensen Triax, an 8 track Craig and The Punch by Fosgate were......installed plenty lol. Learned how to install from age 15, worked my way up to high end stuff, worked for Pioneer Electronics as a product manager during the early 90s (participated in the development of the IMPP subs, the H series of high current amps and the ODR Optical Digital system).
Distributed Dr.Crankenstein subs, Alphasonik (US Acoustics Zed made amps), Amega (from Sweden) and Axiom speakers (from Canada) from
95-98.
By far my favorite sounding amps are the small models of the first 3 Orion HCCA series (1 = Moon and Stars), (2 CnC'd logo) and (3 pop top with built in crossover module). These 2x25, 2x50 and 4x50 amps are the standard by which I judge all other amps, and have never heard anything even close in terms of openness, clarity and musicality.....as long as you have lots of stable voltage and current available, along with the comensurate signal quality and level.
The later series like the Rs are ok, but nothing in the same realm IMHO.
The Pioneer ODRs came second, but were undynamic and didn't respond to lower impedance setups with any kind of life.
Plenty of nice sounding Alpine amps during those years as well. I like some of the Rockford Punch and Power series quite a bit, they aren't really "clean" but do sound great when installed correctly.
Always a Sound Q guy first and foremost, and was the first certified IASCA judge in Canada in 1990. Still love tuning a system to make it sound best. Used to love doing that in Japan during lunch when the engineers were presenting new and conceptual products to us, lol. Also recall a high end home audiophile magazine writer (Robert Frammer) sitting in a BMW 850 I built for Pioneer in 1991 using the new IMPP speakers and H series amps. He didn't like my custom 8 ohm mono bandbass centre channel built from two 3/4 dome tweeters on the back of the rear view mirror firing into the windshield.
Until he heard it, lol. It was priceless; him looking for other speakers and demanding to know what magic was involved making this car spatially open and so clean sounding....even with mediocre equipment, lol.
Currently own 5 HCCAs, 2 Gx moon and stars, and 4 Sx Orions, along with a dozen RF amps and a whole pile of other stuff. Getting back into the hobby after about a 20 year hiatus. Newer stuff that I have been exposed to all sounds like, well, no thanks.
As mentioned, the older products have a lot of replaceable parts like capacitors that dry up and power supplies that fry, but as stated previously, they are repairable and can work for another 20 yrs without fail.
Every tech I use says the same thing - old is awesome and was built like a tank as well as with some clever circuitry and performance.
I still use a 20 year old Dr. Crankenstein HV 12" woofer in a 1 cft box that has been abused and overdriven with as much as 800W rms. Still perfect and shows no signs of aging, even looks wise.
Old school rocks, if you know what was good back then; plenty of old junk brands that sounded terrible back then too, but the innovators of the car audio revolution are all worth looking at: Fosgate, PPI, Orion and Alpine are all up there in my mind, along with the next gen of SQ brands like Phoenix Gold, Soundstream and, later on, JL Audio.
Was in the game from the late 70s until late 90s. I know what a Jensen Triax, an 8 track Craig and The Punch by Fosgate were......installed plenty lol. Learned how to install from age 15, worked my way up to high end stuff, worked for Pioneer Electronics as a product manager during the early 90s (participated in the development of the IMPP subs, the H series of high current amps and the ODR Optical Digital system).
Distributed Dr.Crankenstein subs, Alphasonik (US Acoustics Zed made amps), Amega (from Sweden) and Axiom speakers (from Canada) from
95-98.
By far my favorite sounding amps are the small models of the first 3 Orion HCCA series (1 = Moon and Stars), (2 CnC'd logo) and (3 pop top with built in crossover module). These 2x25, 2x50 and 4x50 amps are the standard by which I judge all other amps, and have never heard anything even close in terms of openness, clarity and musicality.....as long as you have lots of stable voltage and current available, along with the comensurate signal quality and level.
The later series like the Rs are ok, but nothing in the same realm IMHO.
The Pioneer ODRs came second, but were undynamic and didn't respond to lower impedance setups with any kind of life.
Plenty of nice sounding Alpine amps during those years as well. I like some of the Rockford Punch and Power series quite a bit, they aren't really "clean" but do sound great when installed correctly.
Always a Sound Q guy first and foremost, and was the first certified IASCA judge in Canada in 1990. Still love tuning a system to make it sound best. Used to love doing that in Japan during lunch when the engineers were presenting new and conceptual products to us, lol. Also recall a high end home audiophile magazine writer (Robert Frammer) sitting in a BMW 850 I built for Pioneer in 1991 using the new IMPP speakers and H series amps. He didn't like my custom 8 ohm mono bandbass centre channel built from two 3/4 dome tweeters on the back of the rear view mirror firing into the windshield.
Until he heard it, lol. It was priceless; him looking for other speakers and demanding to know what magic was involved making this car spatially open and so clean sounding....even with mediocre equipment, lol.
Currently own 5 HCCAs, 2 Gx moon and stars, and 4 Sx Orions, along with a dozen RF amps and a whole pile of other stuff. Getting back into the hobby after about a 20 year hiatus. Newer stuff that I have been exposed to all sounds like, well, no thanks.
As mentioned, the older products have a lot of replaceable parts like capacitors that dry up and power supplies that fry, but as stated previously, they are repairable and can work for another 20 yrs without fail.
Every tech I use says the same thing - old is awesome and was built like a tank as well as with some clever circuitry and performance.
I still use a 20 year old Dr. Crankenstein HV 12" woofer in a 1 cft box that has been abused and overdriven with as much as 800W rms. Still perfect and shows no signs of aging, even looks wise.
Old school rocks, if you know what was good back then; plenty of old junk brands that sounded terrible back then too, but the innovators of the car audio revolution are all worth looking at: Fosgate, PPI, Orion and Alpine are all up there in my mind, along with the next gen of SQ brands like Phoenix Gold, Soundstream and, later on, JL Audio.
orion amps..
I agree with you on the older orion amps. Love them. I had Bernie Boland to rebuild a 2nd gen. 225 for me and I love that amp!
I agree with you on the older orion amps. Love them. I had Bernie Boland to rebuild a 2nd gen. 225 for me and I love that amp!
Welcome! It's good to have your experience here. Jensen Triax, Clarion 100EQB's, and cutting out shaft mount cups with a Dremel... Been there, too.
lol, shaft mount; offset depths on some cars, grrrrr Air conditioning getting in the way, engine noise, tape head noise on Fords.....the memories are overwhelming.......
Welcome. Remember a car audio place on Keele and Lawrence called Audio Magic ? And De Gasperis audio on Caledonia... and there was a lil shop on differin south of lawrence... dont recall what it was called.
Hi! I personally own (2) fully operational A/D/S/ 2001 systems "The very first DC-DC coupled High Frequency switching 12 volt powered amplifier system, EVER PRODUCED for the commercial markets. A HYBRID construct consisting of a Braun transistorized amplifier system initially designed for HOME use in late 1970, The Amplifier module already constructed by Braun was shipped to the newly formed A/D/S/ corporation in early 1972, when Dr Godehard A. Guenther, Founder of A/D/S/, at this point announced to the general public his intention to build and bring to market the A/D/S/2001 true HIGH POWER audiophile amplifier and speaker system. "Invisible Sound" they called it...
A/D/S/ engineers used state of the art NASA designed SKYLAB and GPS satellite DC-DC high frequency switching power source designs to construct the 60 volt/32 volt DC-DC coupled amplifier POWER system, that Dr Guenther learned about/designed during his time spent working for NASA in the late 1960's and subsequently was used to power the A/D/S/ 2001 amplifier system. The Braun amplifier was imported to the US as a "part" to avoid high tariffs of them times on European goods brought to America.
The A/D/S/ 2001 system was ALSO an Audiophile HOME amplifier. It can be retrofit with a 120 volt power source, a Braun construct.
PARTS... No tariffs on them. That was the A/D/S/ Business model, parts importers. They assembled the 12 volt power sources in America and mated them with the Braun audiophile amplifier "part" and then created the Bi Amped configuration that car amps soon all would follow as a "standard". Another A/D/S/ first.
A/D/S/ created that standard in late 1972 and by early 1973, prototype versions were being distributed to no less than 200 A/D/S/ store locations across the USA. Soon, (late 1975), the A/D/S/ 2001 would be sold in over 1200 stores worldwide.
TRUE AUDIOPHILE construct, as well as design. A TRUE Automobile amplifier system built SOLID.
These A/D/S/ 2001 amplifiers are NO POWER PLATES... Nope. Not even close. The 2001 was built like a TANK. A TRUE audiophile automotive amplifier in design and purpose, complimented by the A/D/S/ 2001 speaker system, with its world class tweeter section ,and the worlds FIRST SUPER WOOFER. Cast Aluminum construction, Butyl Rubber Surround and high excursion High temperature voice coil are ALL......
A/D/S/ "firsts". Thats right, according to History. It's out there, research....
Someone noted here that the FOSGATE PRODUCT needed repairs "after 20 hours of use". That gentleman KNOWS... the early FOSGATE BRANDED products were NOT fit to be mounted in an automotive environment. I own several early FOSGATE amps and the ONLY AUDIOPHILE they have going for them in 1975 was the SIGNAL PROCESSORS which at the time Jim was pushing in home as well as in this new car audio environment.
FOSGATE'S BABY was his PATENTED signal processing circuitry. Period. The amps he made... "6 sold, 9 returned for REPAIR", HIS WORDS.
This condition sadly relegated FOSGATE'S earliest product lines to PROTOTYPES rushed to market, at best, surely NOT... AUDIOPHILE quality.
Thats a BIG word AUDIOPHILE. In design AND construction the ADS 2001 was leap years ahead of all the rest. So says history.
Including Zapco and their first "small chassis" designed systems that in fact were not small at all, Ever see one? Not small. That whole system took up more space than the A/D/S/ 2001 and get this, the A/D/S/ power source was designed to be SEPARATED from the amplifier in much the same way as the Zapco product line was. Separated power source and amp to reduce radiated noise. A/D/S/ engineers figured out how to use the power source attached to the amp at a time when NOISE was the true barrier to HIGH POWER automotive amplifier systems. Later Zapco would figure it out... Fosgate amps of them times.... noisey... still are in these new cars, I know, I own them, they were noisey back then. ugggg.
Audiophile Design... Especially of them TIMES. A/D/S/ was PROUD to be able to advertise in magazines and radio ads of them times that they "Created True Audiophile Autosound"... They did. "From the company that Invented Audiophile Autosound" That too...
I understand Zapco, (Mr Zeff), before incorporation in 1974, was producing "one off" prototype amplifier systems for Hollywood types.. I also understand the DC-DC coupled high frequency power source, initially designed for the very first GPS satellite systems and SKYLAB, was in fact a 1965 development so around 1970 that technology first started leaking into the UNIVERSITIES as up to that point the technology was classified NASA, "Top Secret", such were the times.
The technology used TODAY in automotive amplifiers was first conceived to boost SOLAR PANEL DC voltage OUTPUT in order to supply the needed power to operate the systems on these early GPS satellites. Later SKYLAB.
That's the story from what I have read.
SOMEONE INVENTED IT.... It was an AMERICAN ENGINEER..... Dr. Guenther worked at NASA from about 1966 till late 1968 when he left to explore RETAIL OPPORTUNITIES.... It's where HE learned about the satellite technology, by 1972 A/D/S/ was incorporated and the rest.... HISTORY.
Someone invented it for NASA.... hmmmmm Perhaps Stan Harrison.... He claims to be first. In advertising too. It was Top Secret technology for a time.... might still be. I cant find much on the inventor or the true origins of the DC-DC switching power system, but everything I have read states that it started as satellite technology from NASA. Theres your tie in to Dr. Guenther. PROPS to the man who started it all in his HEAD, long before the rest.
So YES.... as "COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC" GOES?..... in regards to 12 volt DC-DC switching amplifiers...
A/D/S/ was first.
Germans had TUBE AMPS for car use in the 1930's I understand so theres that. I personally dont own one to know the power output of them early amplifiers but very early on, The Germans were very keen on Autosound. Of course the VICTOR-OLA was the "first".... RADIO... OLA!!!
Now ya know the story from an old fart who... was around in them times... installing little boxes in cars... LONG AGO... nuff said.... NJOY/BDBD/2022
They are not "worth" much at all.
Some might ASK more than they are worth, a very different thing.
For a reality shock: WHAT do you find for peanuts at Goodwill and pawnshops?
Stuff which was previously donated (hint: ZERO $ involved)
WHAT do you find for $5 or $10 at garage sales?
Or filling corner dumpsters?
A few might be offered and actually sold, that´s about 0.00000001% of the Audio market, doesn´t even make it into the statistics.
And most of those who actually buy them, often do not buy "an amp", they buy "a problem", because most will need some kind of maintenance.
We are talking 40 y.o. amplifiers here.
Old School amplifiers
Copied and pasted:
Soundstream in the 80's made a real and true Class -A amp rated at 25 /ch , excellent amp and sonically quite possibly the best car audio amp ever made.( i still have them ) Not to be confused with there later so called class-a stuff sold in the 90' s which was junk by comparison, same as other brands being sold today under the same banner.....as being " Class -A "
Who ever wrote this has ZERO clue as to what a pure class A amplifier is.
A push pull class A amplifier rated at 25w/ch at 4 ohm (Maintaining pure class A operation up to 25w @ 4 ohm) requires 3.5A peak running through the output transistors CONTINUOUSLY and a two channel amp requires a total of 7A peak.
These amps ran off a +/-18-20v supply at 14.4v battery supply.
Dissipation at idle is 36 x 3.5 = 126w now double this for two channels = 252 watts of heat AT IDLE.
Now factor in the efficiency of the power supply at say 90% (SS always used unregged supplies in early days). Now the heat sinks must dissipate 280 watts CONTINUOUSLY.
So the amplifier running at 14.4v battery would idle at 19.4 amps CONTINUOUSLY! I one million % doubt this amplifier idled at this current as I repair these all the time.
My measurements when repairing these so called Class A's idle at about 2.5 amps.
All they are are class B amps with the emitters of the output Darlington devices sitting on a 1 ohm resistor with a bypass diode. So one could set the idle current somewhat higher than your traditional Class A-B design because of the degeneration of those 1 ohm emitter resistors.
Another thing is that their bias generator was always just a simple NPN device with no ability to actually monitor the output stage's actual idle current as all true pure class A amplifiers have - or should have!
Zed Audio
Copied and pasted:
Soundstream in the 80's made a real and true Class -A amp rated at 25 /ch , excellent amp and sonically quite possibly the best car audio amp ever made.( i still have them ) Not to be confused with there later so called class-a stuff sold in the 90' s which was junk by comparison, same as other brands being sold today under the same banner.....as being " Class -A "
Who ever wrote this has ZERO clue as to what a pure class A amplifier is.
A push pull class A amplifier rated at 25w/ch at 4 ohm (Maintaining pure class A operation up to 25w @ 4 ohm) requires 3.5A peak running through the output transistors CONTINUOUSLY and a two channel amp requires a total of 7A peak.
These amps ran off a +/-18-20v supply at 14.4v battery supply.
Dissipation at idle is 36 x 3.5 = 126w now double this for two channels = 252 watts of heat AT IDLE.
Now factor in the efficiency of the power supply at say 90% (SS always used unregged supplies in early days). Now the heat sinks must dissipate 280 watts CONTINUOUSLY.
So the amplifier running at 14.4v battery would idle at 19.4 amps CONTINUOUSLY! I one million % doubt this amplifier idled at this current as I repair these all the time.
My measurements when repairing these so called Class A's idle at about 2.5 amps.
All they are are class B amps with the emitters of the output Darlington devices sitting on a 1 ohm resistor with a bypass diode. So one could set the idle current somewhat higher than your traditional Class A-B design because of the degeneration of those 1 ohm emitter resistors.
Another thing is that their bias generator was always just a simple NPN device with no ability to actually monitor the output stage's actual idle current as all true pure class A amplifiers have - or should have!
Zed Audio
Oh yeah.... one more thing, in 1976 I was runnung 2 -12 inch JENSENS in the trunk of my 64 Barracuda.... hooked up to an under dash 8 track player with a radio tape switch that went to a BOWMAN power booster EQ, So YES KIDDIES..... there was Cerwin Vega... Altec Lansing... JBL.... JENSEN.... PLENTY WOOFERS in the early 70's to be had.... The world class MIDS and HIGHS.... would come later from a company known as A/D/S/.... ALSO.... I owned a pair of MINDBLOWERS in my 70 Challenger and I believe they were installed in 1976 by the previous owner who did NOT have the amplifier section hooked up. When I bought the car in 1978 I noticed wires dangling from them back speakers so I climbed in and took a look and.... WOW.... Them MINDBLOWERS to this day were the LOUDEST 6x9 speakers I ever owned... Super efficient speakers back then took very little wattage to get them MOVING..... Depended on the trunk for the most part and that 70 Challenger trunk.... complimented them extremely well. UNREAL sound from TENNA...... There was an EQ too... High Level operation throughout... I own (2) of the EQ systems and would LOVE to find a set of TENNA MINDBLOWERS.... FOR SALE. Tenna, later they would be renamed PYRAMID.... I remember them Mindblowers were REALLY big sellers.... WaaaaaHoppen... Pyramid?.... I think they are still in business... A/D/S/.... Theres a Chinese manufacturer of them now... By name only. I watched the whole industry grow, flourish.... then crash... I hung up my licenses in 2008 and my friends thought I was crazy.... By 2014 it looked like I was a VISIONARY... My friends would tell me.... MAN, If I hung it up in 2008 I would still own my HOUSE.... My CAR.... MY WIFE and Business partners... I decided to attend college and grab a couple degrees in preparation for old age............. I have arrived... and all I think about is AUTOSOUND. I installed an 8 track player into my Firebirds 1500 watt sound system.... 8 tracks never sounded better.... It's 2022 and I installed an 8 track player in my car and yesterday I spent 300 bucks on 8 track tapes from my past.... GREAT MUSIC.... the running theme of my life. NJOY/BDBD/2022