Re: try sound blaster audigy 2 zs
hi is it possible to build creative s750 around 300$?
i dont want looks. just the sound quality of creative s750.
Shaun Perez said:
hi is it possible to build creative s750 around 300$?
i dont want looks. just the sound quality of creative s750.
If you are looking for a sound card with audiophile sound the Soundtrak looks nice, but I haven't listened to it or seen any "objective" tests.
Asus Xonar Essence STX is my personal favourite, it's a true audiphile 2 channel soundcard with outstanding soundqualityies, as well as test data
Asus Xonar Essence STX is my personal favourite, it's a true audiphile 2 channel soundcard with outstanding soundqualityies, as well as test data
Not all craps. Thinkpad soundards are great. Dell are not.
I use Soundblaster Live 24 bit. With 24/96kHz recording it beats plenty of analogs I've heard. You need to bypass windows processing using ASIO etc. With Linux it's direct and okay.
I use Soundblaster Live 24 bit. With 24/96kHz recording it beats plenty of analogs I've heard. You need to bypass windows processing using ASIO etc. With Linux it's direct and okay.
dwk123 said:
The 1212m has a 78L05 regulator for the CS4398 DAC and no regulation for the output opamps, it powers them off the computer's + and -12V supply. I figured out the power schema when modding the card.
the problem is (imo) that as good as sound card specs are, they have to interface with all the on board elctronics of the said computer, and so in doing will pick up emi etc...
the fact is that the sound card ulitmately runs off the same power supply of all the other electronics so some trade offs are made . a sc really needs its own "clean" supply, i have a pretty decent card hooked up to my pre/power combo but if i crank the volume with nothing playing i can hear faint "processor noise" and it gets worse if the pc is under load, im thinking about a usb dac, maybe that would solve the sound quality issues?
after all, even if your sound card is "high end" it kind of defeats the point when you put it in to the average pc case which is full of hdd's, ram sticks and the lastest processors which create lots of electronic noise, not forgetting the fans, i suppose it can all affect the sound quality? generally speaking on board sound is the least satisfying, with dedicated soundcards being better?
this is all just my opinon, but it would seem that modifying soundcards would just be pointless if they are going to be put back into the pc case with all that interfirence? maybey giving it its own power supply and seperate case is the answer? et, al usb dac🙂
the fact is that the sound card ulitmately runs off the same power supply of all the other electronics so some trade offs are made . a sc really needs its own "clean" supply, i have a pretty decent card hooked up to my pre/power combo but if i crank the volume with nothing playing i can hear faint "processor noise" and it gets worse if the pc is under load, im thinking about a usb dac, maybe that would solve the sound quality issues?
after all, even if your sound card is "high end" it kind of defeats the point when you put it in to the average pc case which is full of hdd's, ram sticks and the lastest processors which create lots of electronic noise, not forgetting the fans, i suppose it can all affect the sound quality? generally speaking on board sound is the least satisfying, with dedicated soundcards being better?
this is all just my opinon, but it would seem that modifying soundcards would just be pointless if they are going to be put back into the pc case with all that interfirence? maybey giving it its own power supply and seperate case is the answer? et, al usb dac🙂
The Asus D2 has received excellent detailed reviews. The author of Frequency Allocator said "My Alesis AI-3 and Presonus Firebox are clearly inferior."
I have the card and have briefly played it through my best speakers and it is very good (I didn't do any comparisons). Here's a detailed review at xbit:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/asus-xonar.html
I believe the D2 has been replaced by the D2x (or a similiar name._)
I have the card and have briefly played it through my best speakers and it is very good (I didn't do any comparisons). Here's a detailed review at xbit:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/asus-xonar.html
I believe the D2 has been replaced by the D2x (or a similiar name._)
I agree with jimmytwos and others in the point that sound cards usually pick up EMI disturbances inside the computer cases.
But in my eyes the main problem is:
PCs are usally powered with a SMPS (switching mode power supply) and the metal case is earthed through the power cord.
The SMPS generates RF radiation, magnetic interference and RF wire bound disturbances like common mode / differential mode signals.
From the SMPS the common mode noise is guided by blocking capacitors into the earth cable and can generate a lot of RF current.
As on the PC-market there is a big price preasure, SMPS are designed to offer maximum power (> 400W) rather than little disturbances (no one will pay extra for this feature).
Almost all PC-soundcards have no galvanic isolation between MB ground and signal ground. The moment you connect a cable from the PC-card to a Amplifier/loudspeaker system all the common mode disturbances are invited to pass through the audio ground (shield) and into the connected device.
This happens by common mode current flowing from the PC into the ground of the audio system. As standard soundcards have only asymmetric outputs and the audio systems expect asym input - voila - the noise will be amplified by the audio system.
What I see critical with all PC-sound cards judging:
Every audio system is sensitive to RF noise in a different way. So one with a very robust audio system and a PC SMPS with low EMI will probably say: card XY is pretty good. The next one with a poor SMPS and a sensitive audio system will experience the absolute opposite.
So I find it hard to make a general statement on specific cards.
The best option in my eyes is usining an external DAC connected to the digital output of the PC. If it is SPDIF/AES a transformer is absolutely required in the signal path, with optical connection the PC's earth is isolated from the audio system.
That way noone has to warry about disturbances from inside the PC.
But in my eyes the main problem is:
PCs are usally powered with a SMPS (switching mode power supply) and the metal case is earthed through the power cord.
The SMPS generates RF radiation, magnetic interference and RF wire bound disturbances like common mode / differential mode signals.
From the SMPS the common mode noise is guided by blocking capacitors into the earth cable and can generate a lot of RF current.
As on the PC-market there is a big price preasure, SMPS are designed to offer maximum power (> 400W) rather than little disturbances (no one will pay extra for this feature).
Almost all PC-soundcards have no galvanic isolation between MB ground and signal ground. The moment you connect a cable from the PC-card to a Amplifier/loudspeaker system all the common mode disturbances are invited to pass through the audio ground (shield) and into the connected device.
This happens by common mode current flowing from the PC into the ground of the audio system. As standard soundcards have only asymmetric outputs and the audio systems expect asym input - voila - the noise will be amplified by the audio system.
What I see critical with all PC-sound cards judging:
Every audio system is sensitive to RF noise in a different way. So one with a very robust audio system and a PC SMPS with low EMI will probably say: card XY is pretty good. The next one with a poor SMPS and a sensitive audio system will experience the absolute opposite.
So I find it hard to make a general statement on specific cards.
The best option in my eyes is usining an external DAC connected to the digital output of the PC. If it is SPDIF/AES a transformer is absolutely required in the signal path, with optical connection the PC's earth is isolated from the audio system.
That way noone has to warry about disturbances from inside the PC.
Wow Aoxomox great post.
Are there any soundcards that truly isolate themselves from the ground of the computer? Firewire, PCI, or USB? I have no even tried to see if I can plug my new firewire into another circuit. It's been my experience that having something as little as the monitor on another circuit and you will get the hum of death.
Are there any soundcards that truly isolate themselves from the ground of the computer? Firewire, PCI, or USB? I have no even tried to see if I can plug my new firewire into another circuit. It's been my experience that having something as little as the monitor on another circuit and you will get the hum of death.
Audiosciences make some really nice cards for playback apps (the latency is way too high to make them interesting for most recording usage).
For something that is useful for low latency work the RME HDSP9632 is very, very good and also makes a reasonable card for measurement applications.
Now neither of these are $15 dollar (or even $150) cards, but both put the AD and DA inside the PC and manage performance levels that demonstrate that given correct design the electromagnetic environment inside a PC is not a problem.
Of course these cards output +4dbu balanced line rather then the single ended stuff that so much consumer kit produces.
Currents flowing in the shields don't matter if they don't connect to the receivers internal reference (and they shouldn't).
Regards, Dan.
For something that is useful for low latency work the RME HDSP9632 is very, very good and also makes a reasonable card for measurement applications.
Now neither of these are $15 dollar (or even $150) cards, but both put the AD and DA inside the PC and manage performance levels that demonstrate that given correct design the electromagnetic environment inside a PC is not a problem.
Of course these cards output +4dbu balanced line rather then the single ended stuff that so much consumer kit produces.
Currents flowing in the shields don't matter if they don't connect to the receivers internal reference (and they shouldn't).
Regards, Dan.
SVI2004A said:
Nature of the beast, doesn't matter how good they can get, they still have to run off that filty rotten noise impregnating computer smps.
I still remember what David Manley original owner of VTL once said, the power supply is the engine room for all audio ampilfication, if it's bad here it can never get great elsewhere.
Cheers George
There are many quality audio cards for computers especially if you look to professional gear. The current leader in sound card audio quality for home users is Auzentech. Their cards have socketed DAC's and have been moded by many people. I am finishing school soon and I am planing on building what I feel will be the ultimate source using the Auzentech forte card. My plan includes swapping out the opamp, bypassing the output caps and upgrading the clock. I originally planned on this source being just for audio but I now see that doing so is a waste. It makes more sense to make it a universal source which can play any type of media both on disk and on file. Even the most basic of computers coming out now can play 1080p so why waste all that extra potential. There is more to my plan but I will lay it out in another post when I have time to see how it could be improved. Personally I see the whole single source, single format system as dead and on it's way out. With the fact that all media is currently digital I see high end hardware sources as we know it becoming esoteric and the focus becoming high end audio and video cards.
As to those old timers on here who say smps is a problem with SQ from a computer, that may have been true 5-10 years ago but technology has come a very long way. PS noise from a good computer PS has become a non issue. If you are really bugged by it you could always build a traditional PS for a computer or just power the audio card from it's own PS.
BTW Auzentech does seperate the digital ground from the analog. You can see it in it's specs here.
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php
As to those old timers on here who say smps is a problem with SQ from a computer, that may have been true 5-10 years ago but technology has come a very long way. PS noise from a good computer PS has become a non issue. If you are really bugged by it you could always build a traditional PS for a computer or just power the audio card from it's own PS.
BTW Auzentech does seperate the digital ground from the analog. You can see it in it's specs here.
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php
PCI soundboard - Best kept secret...
The Onkyo SE200-PCI is the best board i've found yet (and believe me, i have a closet full of beat sound-boards!)
It is crystal clear. look it up on geekstuff4you and check the specs.
I'd be interested in your opinions...
Regards,
Tom
The Onkyo SE200-PCI is the best board i've found yet (and believe me, i have a closet full of beat sound-boards!)
It is crystal clear. look it up on geekstuff4you and check the specs.
I'd be interested in your opinions...
Regards,
Tom
Onkyo SE200-PCI was released already 2,5 years ago and Onkyo doesn't have it on their web site anymore. It.s probably not manufactured anymore. It is still good, but it doesn't come close to Asus Xonar Essence STX!
The Onkyo have 115dB SNR, Asus have 124dBSNR on LIne Out. 9dB difference is a lot of noise in silent passages of your music, and really bad inbetween tracks.
When I installed the Asus I first thought it was dead, but it was just so (dead😉 silent. I use headphones, this is the best way to compare soundcards wrt noise.
Even recording using the Line Input give -118dB SNR,😎
THD+N is 0.0002%,🙂
Have read all the thoughts about noisy PC SMPS However "modern"SMPS are better than what you may think, otherwise the new PC's wouyld be fairly unstable beasts.
Sure, most sound cards are really not designed well enoughto provide audiophile sound quality in that environment.
But Ausus Xonar Essence STX do as result of highly improved ground scheme (wich they have patteneted and Hyper Grounding) and generally well laid out plan for the PCB spiced with components that are generally highly regarded amongst audiophiles.
Asus Have spent a loot of good engineering time and effort in order to design the groundplanes for analog and digital circuitry seperated in different layers. They also pull the power to soundcard vía additional +/-12VDC cable straight from the +/-12VDC smps to power the analog parts, not routing power through the PC mother board. In addition they use high quality electrolytic caps, Sanyos, Oscons to bypass and decouple the power rails . Finally, there is a massive EMI shielding plate covering all the analog components from inductively and capacitively induced noise from the CPU, graphics board and what have you.
Asus uses BB1792A DAC chips, LM4562 opamp and RC 2114D and TI TPA6120A2 for the headphone output, Nichicon Fine Gold caps aso.
And very important - it's not tainted by any 5.1 or 7.1 surround **** - The analog section is strictly 2 channel stereo. You can get 5.1 on the SPD/IF. It also lacks same of the later game functions, but I dont play games, I play music!
Here's a review:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/1712/asus_xonar_essence_stx_sound_card/index.html
And here's a more detailed test, including swapping opamps:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-stx-review/12
The Onkyo have 115dB SNR, Asus have 124dBSNR on LIne Out. 9dB difference is a lot of noise in silent passages of your music, and really bad inbetween tracks.
When I installed the Asus I first thought it was dead, but it was just so (dead😉 silent. I use headphones, this is the best way to compare soundcards wrt noise.
Even recording using the Line Input give -118dB SNR,😎
THD+N is 0.0002%,🙂
Have read all the thoughts about noisy PC SMPS However "modern"SMPS are better than what you may think, otherwise the new PC's wouyld be fairly unstable beasts.
Sure, most sound cards are really not designed well enoughto provide audiophile sound quality in that environment.
But Ausus Xonar Essence STX do as result of highly improved ground scheme (wich they have patteneted and Hyper Grounding) and generally well laid out plan for the PCB spiced with components that are generally highly regarded amongst audiophiles.
Asus Have spent a loot of good engineering time and effort in order to design the groundplanes for analog and digital circuitry seperated in different layers. They also pull the power to soundcard vía additional +/-12VDC cable straight from the +/-12VDC smps to power the analog parts, not routing power through the PC mother board. In addition they use high quality electrolytic caps, Sanyos, Oscons to bypass and decouple the power rails . Finally, there is a massive EMI shielding plate covering all the analog components from inductively and capacitively induced noise from the CPU, graphics board and what have you.
Asus uses BB1792A DAC chips, LM4562 opamp and RC 2114D and TI TPA6120A2 for the headphone output, Nichicon Fine Gold caps aso.
And very important - it's not tainted by any 5.1 or 7.1 surround **** - The analog section is strictly 2 channel stereo. You can get 5.1 on the SPD/IF. It also lacks same of the later game functions, but I dont play games, I play music!
Here's a review:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/1712/asus_xonar_essence_stx_sound_card/index.html
And here's a more detailed test, including swapping opamps:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-stx-review/12
The STX operates in a PCIE slot.
The opamp is operated at 12V single rail. Results will be generally worse than one operated off a higher voltage.
The opamp is operated at 12V single rail. Results will be generally worse than one operated off a higher voltage.
Can't say I'm too fond of DIP sockets in commercial products. I do see some SMT caps for decoupling, but the added lead length doesn't allow for noise reduction as good as that from an SOIC (or socketless DIP) part.
Sangram, you're DEAD WRONG! The analog section of STX is powered via a +/-12VDC cable straight from the SMPS, not from the PCI-E connector! I have even checked this by measuring on pin4 and 8....😀
This is partly why STX outperforms all other sound cards in that price range. I don't know of any other (200$) sound card where the design is so well thought through and implemented.
Drivers are also claimed to be an issue, but I haven't had any problems whatsoever with the latest release.😎
If you are thinking of getting a STX you better hurry, ASUS don't show on their site any longer!
The *only* place where -12V is available in a PC is on the PCI (not PCIE) slot. The molex connector only carries +5 and +12V, and two ground wires. This has been standard for the last decade or so, all Molex and Floppy connectors only carry positive voltages 🙂
I admire your enthusiasm and love for the card, but the fact is that unless Asus is re-generating the power, all PCIE products are running off the 12V rail that is available on the PCIE slot. Of course performance both subjectively and objectively may be good, but it still is constrained. The -12V rail on a typical SMPS (or even the +12V rail) is not very well regulated for noise. The ATX spec allows 120mV ripple and noise on the 12V rail, which is very high compared to a linear supply. No spec is supplied for the -12V rail, but mostly this a low-current line and I've seen a few manufacturers dump a 7912 on the output.
This is also why very few pro card manufacturers have adopted the PCIE interface for their products 🙂 though there are a few.
If you have measured and found the presence of a negative voltage, it's been regenerated. Tracing out that would be helpful.
I don't need the STX. I got myself a Buffalo, and it does all I'll ever need a source to do.
I admire your enthusiasm and love for the card, but the fact is that unless Asus is re-generating the power, all PCIE products are running off the 12V rail that is available on the PCIE slot. Of course performance both subjectively and objectively may be good, but it still is constrained. The -12V rail on a typical SMPS (or even the +12V rail) is not very well regulated for noise. The ATX spec allows 120mV ripple and noise on the 12V rail, which is very high compared to a linear supply. No spec is supplied for the -12V rail, but mostly this a low-current line and I've seen a few manufacturers dump a 7912 on the output.
This is also why very few pro card manufacturers have adopted the PCIE interface for their products 🙂 though there are a few.
If you have measured and found the presence of a negative voltage, it's been regenerated. Tracing out that would be helpful.
I don't need the STX. I got myself a Buffalo, and it does all I'll ever need a source to do.
"This is partly why STX outperforms all other sound cards in that price range. I don't know of any other (200$) sound card where the design is so well thought through and implemented."
This is a great card but the Auzentech forte is a card in the same level. Have you had any experience with it?
This is a great card but the Auzentech forte is a card in the same level. Have you had any experience with it?
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