pan-dont worry i understood u anyway. 
Sorry, I meant dipole loss. There is no box for the upper 2 speakers, they are on an open baffle. The bottom 18" is in 4 cu ft sealed ELF box.
It's all about Dampening.....
No such thing as “Slow” bass, it’s a myth that has been going on for some time now.
The perception of “Slow Bass” comes from the properties of the driver/enclosure combo but mostly the Dampening, or the control of the Amplifier’s output of the Sub Driver motor, also the crossover topology has much to do with Dampening.
No such thing as “Slow” bass, it’s a myth that has been going on for some time now.
The perception of “Slow Bass” comes from the properties of the driver/enclosure combo but mostly the Dampening, or the control of the Amplifier’s output of the Sub Driver motor, also the crossover topology has much to do with Dampening.
I wouldn't count on the Crossover. Many 18's are using an Electronic Crossover, not passive.
As I mentioned previously, if the motor is not strong enough
to drive the speaker accurately, it will lag. There's huge
difference using an 18 for home, for Cars, and, PA Use. PA Speakers are required for high SPL's for hours,
oppose home, and car 18's, which won't be played that
loud under the same time period. (8 hours+)
If you can't hear the difference between the to (15 vs 18)
we are both comparing different things, from different applications.
Thats like saying the Eminence Killomax 18 will move just as
fast as the Killomax 15 both using the same magnet weight.
Best Regards,
As I mentioned previously, if the motor is not strong enough
to drive the speaker accurately, it will lag. There's huge
difference using an 18 for home, for Cars, and, PA Use. PA Speakers are required for high SPL's for hours,
oppose home, and car 18's, which won't be played that
loud under the same time period. (8 hours+)
If you can't hear the difference between the to (15 vs 18)
we are both comparing different things, from different applications.
Thats like saying the Eminence Killomax 18 will move just as
fast as the Killomax 15 both using the same magnet weight.
Best Regards,
My experience with "slow" bass.
Any system I've listened to that is reproducing low bass, whether in a car, PA, studio, or home audio, always has a "slow" sound. I will agree with Pan on that one. I think low bass is just inherently slow.
I recently built a subwoofer using 8- 8" speakers in a SEALED enclosure. Sealed has the lowest group delay, correct? 8" diameter is pretty small. Low bass sounds as slow as anything else I've ever heard. (I can see the attacks on my design coming, but I don't believe it's the design).
Have you ever heard a real kick drum up close that was tuned fairly low with a front and rear head? THere is definitely some delay going on there. On a good recording, you can hear the "after flap" of the head. I'm not talking about normal decay here, because drums do not decay in a normal, predictacle way. There is always a certain amount of cancellation/reinforcement between heads, and within the head itself. You hear somewhat of a delay. Now, I have noticed that all PA systems I have played through with my kick drum mic'd up tend to delay that more. I believe that most the time it is due to the eq being boosted on the low frequencies, which normally are not emphasized when playing without a mic.
As far as kick drum sound at 1Khz, your bass driver dosen't give a hoot about what is going on at 1K (assuming it is crossed over at sub frequencies of course). It is going to sound the same no matter if you're reproducing 1K or not! What will change is your perception of punchiness as the beater "click" at the higher frequencies (actually usually centered closer to 4K, depending on beater type)being reproduced on a midrange driver is increased or decreased. The sub will be acting the same, but that upper harmonic and beater attack are what really define the "punchiness" we associate with kick drum.
Steve
(Only talking about his experience for the last 18+ years as a drummer)
Any system I've listened to that is reproducing low bass, whether in a car, PA, studio, or home audio, always has a "slow" sound. I will agree with Pan on that one. I think low bass is just inherently slow.
I recently built a subwoofer using 8- 8" speakers in a SEALED enclosure. Sealed has the lowest group delay, correct? 8" diameter is pretty small. Low bass sounds as slow as anything else I've ever heard. (I can see the attacks on my design coming, but I don't believe it's the design).
Have you ever heard a real kick drum up close that was tuned fairly low with a front and rear head? THere is definitely some delay going on there. On a good recording, you can hear the "after flap" of the head. I'm not talking about normal decay here, because drums do not decay in a normal, predictacle way. There is always a certain amount of cancellation/reinforcement between heads, and within the head itself. You hear somewhat of a delay. Now, I have noticed that all PA systems I have played through with my kick drum mic'd up tend to delay that more. I believe that most the time it is due to the eq being boosted on the low frequencies, which normally are not emphasized when playing without a mic.
As far as kick drum sound at 1Khz, your bass driver dosen't give a hoot about what is going on at 1K (assuming it is crossed over at sub frequencies of course). It is going to sound the same no matter if you're reproducing 1K or not! What will change is your perception of punchiness as the beater "click" at the higher frequencies (actually usually centered closer to 4K, depending on beater type)being reproduced on a midrange driver is increased or decreased. The sub will be acting the same, but that upper harmonic and beater attack are what really define the "punchiness" we associate with kick drum.
Steve
(Only talking about his experience for the last 18+ years as a drummer)
nobody special,
I agree 100%
I think we are talking to different kinds of bass here. 18's
are generally designed for low bass, where as 15's can be
anything from a JBL E 140 to Lambada Acoustics PB 15.
15's are more versatile, where as 18's are designed for one purpose.
I agree 100%
I think we are talking to different kinds of bass here. 18's
are generally designed for low bass, where as 15's can be
anything from a JBL E 140 to Lambada Acoustics PB 15.
15's are more versatile, where as 18's are designed for one purpose.
I think it's funny to try to really compare drivers of different sizes as though they are the same. I personally prefer as large a driver as possible, because the larger the driver, the less effort it has to put into reproducing any given tone, because it is moving more air. And I think effortless bass is clean, tight, "fast" bass. Bass played from a driver too small to take it in stride will have added elements, especially my least favorite, what I like to call "bass aftertaste". You know what I'm talking about. That lingering bass you hear that you swear wasn't there when you were listening through your Sennheisers.🙂
sennhausers-expensive headphones??
i listen through my dads kenwoods ,they look like earmuffs.
i prefer them to the tv speaker and our sony tlines :-D
they do 20hz-20khz altho 20hz is a very quiet rumble 33hz is ok.
i agree.driver /box is the main thing.it makes sense.
nobody special- yeh its about perception. have u used cooledit2000 ? its like an osciloscope. :-D taht multiple cheap 8inch box was quite good wasnt it? :-D
later im going to use cooledit 2000 and look at the harmonics in my sub output.
i listen through my dads kenwoods ,they look like earmuffs.
i prefer them to the tv speaker and our sony tlines :-D
they do 20hz-20khz altho 20hz is a very quiet rumble 33hz is ok.
i agree.driver /box is the main thing.it makes sense.
nobody special- yeh its about perception. have u used cooledit2000 ? its like an osciloscope. :-D taht multiple cheap 8inch box was quite good wasnt it? :-D
later im going to use cooledit 2000 and look at the harmonics in my sub output.
reply
Bass can described in many ways.
Sub bass,creates a very low rumble and vibrates things and shakes the building.
Bass, deep ooopph oooph sound
mid/bass chest thumping bass
low mid,instrument bass sounds,eg the deepness of a bass guitar.
Not all 18 inches are used for low bass.Think about those 18 inches in scoop bass bins[rear loaded horn,front facing driver],
they 'hit' you in the chest with thumpy bass beats,hard enough so that sometimes it can 'feel' like it's crushing your ribcage.
Then you have deep rumbling bass,which makes the windows of a house buzz,and makes huge vibrations and vibrates everything in sight.Then you have the boom boom bass sound,you just hear with your ears,you don't feel it.And last but not least,the instrumental bass sound,of example a bass guitar string getting plucked[the deep rich sound].
So for the best pa soundsystem.
Bandpass subbass cabinets or Servodrive subbass cabinets,J bin,W bin or Scoop bin bass cabinets,midrange speakers in sealed boxes with acoustic wooden flare lens,2 inch comp midranges,1 inch comp tweeters,bullet super tweeters or piezo piezo tweeters.
And a suitable poweramp for each section and a 5 way active crossover.
Are J bass bins[like the Cerwin Vega SL36] and W bass bins,better of reproducing deeper bass than scoop bass bins,as well as delivering the same 'chest thump'.
Also large folded horns with ported chambers,give a combination of effects,such as deep bass,and hard hitting mid bass.
I think 18 inch quad chamber bandpass go the lowest[10hz],
18 inch w bins [25hz],18 inch j bins [30hz],18 inch scoop bins[35hz]
You can buy some extremely large bass drivers for pa,24 inch and 21 inch.[P. Audio,Beyma,Precision Devices,IMG Stage Line]
I bet they can produce very low bass as low as 10hz for the 24 inch,15hz for the 21 inch[in a suitable quad chamber bandpass enclosure of course]
www.jahtubbys.co.uk custom build 21 inch and 24 inch scoop bass bins,as well as normal 15 inch and 18 inch scoops loaded with Mc Kenzie drivers.
Bass can described in many ways.
Sub bass,creates a very low rumble and vibrates things and shakes the building.
Bass, deep ooopph oooph sound
mid/bass chest thumping bass
low mid,instrument bass sounds,eg the deepness of a bass guitar.
Not all 18 inches are used for low bass.Think about those 18 inches in scoop bass bins[rear loaded horn,front facing driver],
they 'hit' you in the chest with thumpy bass beats,hard enough so that sometimes it can 'feel' like it's crushing your ribcage.
Then you have deep rumbling bass,which makes the windows of a house buzz,and makes huge vibrations and vibrates everything in sight.Then you have the boom boom bass sound,you just hear with your ears,you don't feel it.And last but not least,the instrumental bass sound,of example a bass guitar string getting plucked[the deep rich sound].
So for the best pa soundsystem.
Bandpass subbass cabinets or Servodrive subbass cabinets,J bin,W bin or Scoop bin bass cabinets,midrange speakers in sealed boxes with acoustic wooden flare lens,2 inch comp midranges,1 inch comp tweeters,bullet super tweeters or piezo piezo tweeters.
And a suitable poweramp for each section and a 5 way active crossover.
Are J bass bins[like the Cerwin Vega SL36] and W bass bins,better of reproducing deeper bass than scoop bass bins,as well as delivering the same 'chest thump'.
Also large folded horns with ported chambers,give a combination of effects,such as deep bass,and hard hitting mid bass.
I think 18 inch quad chamber bandpass go the lowest[10hz],
18 inch w bins [25hz],18 inch j bins [30hz],18 inch scoop bins[35hz]
You can buy some extremely large bass drivers for pa,24 inch and 21 inch.[P. Audio,Beyma,Precision Devices,IMG Stage Line]
I bet they can produce very low bass as low as 10hz for the 24 inch,15hz for the 21 inch[in a suitable quad chamber bandpass enclosure of course]
www.jahtubbys.co.uk custom build 21 inch and 24 inch scoop bass bins,as well as normal 15 inch and 18 inch scoops loaded with Mc Kenzie drivers.
i kno alot of bins are tiny mouthed so u need about 4 of them to get decent output .
some of the more recent ones using good design programs are good.
i could just fit a..
😱)
-labhorn-😎
im sure the21inchers need large boxes 😛
some of the more recent ones using good design programs are good.
i could just fit a..
😱)
-labhorn-😎
im sure the21inchers need large boxes 😛
Re: reply
Good example. The only thing is its the box/horn, thats
stiffling the 18 to play the ultra low notes. The 18 sits in
a 3 cubic foot box, and, has only a 7 foot horn. These
boxes cannot play low bass (Their frequency drops
sharply under 60Hz) unless your using multiples. I've
own, used, and, got rid of them for these reasons.
How about double eighteens, for sub low, and W bins for
bass. Use a little delay, and, cut the W's at 60Hz, and let
the Double Eighteens carry the rest. Since we are talking
PA, bandpass won't be the best choice. Servodrives are
nice, but, I'm not fond of the price.
I'm assuming this is a question, although I didn't see
a question mark. Cerwin Vega's are "e" Horns, where
as EAW BH 500/800 are "J" Horns. These horns will give
you a better "Chest Thump" as you put it than Scoops.
The only thing is you generally see more Scoops used
in multiples than Cerwin Vega's.
Your talking about the Keele W (Don Keele) Bin. It uses
are larger internal chamber, than the Scoop, and will play
abetter "Chest Thump" and extended lows than a Scoop.
However, using One Keele W, -vs- One Double
Eighteen............... Double Eighteen Wins.
More like;
EV MT4 = 48 Hz
W Bin = 60 Hz
Keele W = 55 Hz
EAW BH 800 = 48 Hz
18 Inch Scoops = 60 Hz
Used singular, lowest usable frequency.
Beyma is the only drivers suited for extended lows. The
Precision, and P Audio were designed for Horn Loaded
use (21 inch talking) Its one of the reasons you'll find
Precision Devices in Scoops, and Beyma's in Reflex.
Best Regards,
Bull said:
Good example. The only thing is its the box/horn, thats
stiffling the 18 to play the ultra low notes. The 18 sits in
a 3 cubic foot box, and, has only a 7 foot horn. These
boxes cannot play low bass (Their frequency drops
sharply under 60Hz) unless your using multiples. I've
own, used, and, got rid of them for these reasons.
How about double eighteens, for sub low, and W bins for
bass. Use a little delay, and, cut the W's at 60Hz, and let
the Double Eighteens carry the rest. Since we are talking
PA, bandpass won't be the best choice. Servodrives are
nice, but, I'm not fond of the price.
I'm assuming this is a question, although I didn't see
a question mark. Cerwin Vega's are "e" Horns, where
as EAW BH 500/800 are "J" Horns. These horns will give
you a better "Chest Thump" as you put it than Scoops.
The only thing is you generally see more Scoops used
in multiples than Cerwin Vega's.
Your talking about the Keele W (Don Keele) Bin. It uses
are larger internal chamber, than the Scoop, and will play
abetter "Chest Thump" and extended lows than a Scoop.
However, using One Keele W, -vs- One Double
Eighteen............... Double Eighteen Wins.
More like;
EV MT4 = 48 Hz
W Bin = 60 Hz
Keele W = 55 Hz
EAW BH 800 = 48 Hz
18 Inch Scoops = 60 Hz
Used singular, lowest usable frequency.
Beyma is the only drivers suited for extended lows. The
Precision, and P Audio were designed for Horn Loaded
use (21 inch talking) Its one of the reasons you'll find
Precision Devices in Scoops, and Beyma's in Reflex.
Best Regards,
"I think what makes many people feel a small bass drivers sounds faster, is because it doesn´t have any low bass, and if the lowest frequencies is missing from a recording that actually have them, then the sound is "faster". Low bass can never sound fast, it´s slow by nature. Tightness is another thing but that is about the box and room. A dipole often better than a box and room acoustc tools make more difference than anything else since the room modes are slower than any decent bass alignment. "
-yeah, thats something like what i've been experiencing in my car. when the bass is "tight", it is not that "deep". at first i thought it was due to some kinda equipment limitation. anyone else have an experience like this?
-yeah, thats something like what i've been experiencing in my car. when the bass is "tight", it is not that "deep". at first i thought it was due to some kinda equipment limitation. anyone else have an experience like this?
Omni,I have four Das 18" loaded keele W bins. Im not in position to change drivers. I feel the ports are too small dia and way too long in an attempt to Go low. Can you run some numbers on theese? I am looking to tune to the FS which I think is 34hz near enough to the original 35. The present ports are dia 85 by 240 long.Regards Peter.
18's are slow comparrison to 15's.
15's frequency response can go up to 1K, where as an 18
stops at 300Hz.
Inpact/Punch heart is @ 80Hz, however, its starts at 1Khz
(Kick Drums upper harmonics) so, this is one of the reasons,
why 15's have the edge.
Another, as you mentioned, is the mass. For an eighteen to
move very fast, the BL factor needs to be extremely high.
So, considering manufacters make an 18 inch motor on a 15
inch chassis, which speaker will offer a better control?
There's also, an issue with power here. You can probably get away with using an 18 for punchy/impact bass at low
power, but, start feeding it 1000+ watts power, and, you
will hear the difference.
Bigger Magnet = Better Control, Tighter Bass, but, not the
best for ultra low frequencies
Smaller Magnet = Less Control, Sub Low Bass, but, not the
best for upper bass (Low Mid/Mid Bass) frequencies.
Pick Your Poison
Can you quantify this in terms of T/S parameters please? Otherwise, this is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo.
Well, this is an old thread.
Bass that people say is "tight" will generally mean there's no deep (sub 60Hz) bass. If you build a cabinet that'll go deep, then add a simple high pass at say 50Hz, it'll probably sound "tight".
There's no such thing as a fast 80, 60, or 30Hz wave, though. If the bass does sound muddy, chances are it's not mixing properly with the midbasses, affecting the reproduction of the harmonics of the LF sound.
Chris
Bass that people say is "tight" will generally mean there's no deep (sub 60Hz) bass. If you build a cabinet that'll go deep, then add a simple high pass at say 50Hz, it'll probably sound "tight".
There's no such thing as a fast 80, 60, or 30Hz wave, though. If the bass does sound muddy, chances are it's not mixing properly with the midbasses, affecting the reproduction of the harmonics of the LF sound.
Chris
First and most I would say its due to poor box calculation/design
second, its due to small crossover errors
correct 'timing'(phase) makes the difference
you will hear it as better 'definition' of bass lines, and thus less 'muddy'
those are the main reasons
and I would say that if you put too much effort into exstremes is asking for trouble
might sound strange that I say this, but one big mistake would be to put too much effort into the slam 'region' around 100hz
it will overflow al the fine bass details.....and sound muddy
if you prefer a good clean 'slam', then its not hifi, but more PA or DJ sound
I assume that high distortion in a subwoofer sounds "muddy" as well.
Unless the box volume is calculated and the box is built well, then I could see where the sound would also be "muddy" and have that "one note" sound.
Unless the box volume is calculated and the box is built well, then I could see where the sound would also be "muddy" and have that "one note" sound.
here's a little 18" speaker of mine which sounds pretty quick plus has low cone excursion at high outputs - interestingly, if the top 4" of slit aperture is blocked then it subjectively loses "speed" and "highs" - I believe that portion of the aperture de-Q's the system. I've run Unity horn on this too. The slotted pipe sounds good and normally mounts in the hole seen above the woofer.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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