how do u determine if an 18 is *slow*
i hear people saying 18s are slow,
howso/is it the mass?surely the large magnets can keep the cone under control?????
the Box will have a large contribution to it ,so it maybe difficult to compare different speakers.
i hear people saying 18s are slow,
howso/is it the mass?surely the large magnets can keep the cone under control?????
the Box will have a large contribution to it ,so it maybe difficult to compare different speakers.
Hey Mike!
I object to anyone who says this. I have experienced the exact opposite, and I believe they sound even better than smaller transducers, and just as "fast" (however you wish to define it, usually people refer to the transient response when they say the fastness/slowness of a transducer. Then again a lot of people have a misconception on this too). The amplifier makes so much difference. A low quality high power amp will not do the job. High quality, powerful amps are a must, they will make a large difference.
Adrian
I object to anyone who says this. I have experienced the exact opposite, and I believe they sound even better than smaller transducers, and just as "fast" (however you wish to define it, usually people refer to the transient response when they say the fastness/slowness of a transducer. Then again a lot of people have a misconception on this too). The amplifier makes so much difference. A low quality high power amp will not do the job. High quality, powerful amps are a must, they will make a large difference.
Adrian
They'll Shake You Trousers, Real Quick..
I have experienced plenty of PA system !8" subs.
Running at hundreds of watts, I would say that none of them are at all slow.
Eric.
I have experienced plenty of PA system !8" subs.
Running at hundreds of watts, I would say that none of them are at all slow.
Eric.
There is A Smarty In Every Crowd...
Ok, eighteen inch subs !!!!. 😉
8 x 18" works pretty good too.
Eric.
Ok, eighteen inch subs !!!!. 😉
8 x 18" works pretty good too.
Eric.
18's are slow comparrison to 15's.
15's frequency response can go up to 1K, where as an 18
stops at 300Hz.
Inpact/Punch heart is @ 80Hz, however, its starts at 1Khz
(Kick Drums upper harmonics) so, this is one of the reasons,
why 15's have the edge.
Another, as you mentioned, is the mass. For an eighteen to
move very fast, the BL factor needs to be extremely high.
So, considering manufacters make an 18 inch motor on a 15
inch chassis, which speaker will offer a better control?
There's also, an issue with power here. You can probably get away with using an 18 for punchy/impact bass at low
power, but, start feeding it 1000+ watts power, and, you
will hear the difference.
Bigger Magnet = Better Control, Tighter Bass, but, not the
best for ultra low frequencies
Smaller Magnet = Less Control, Sub Low Bass, but, not the
best for upper bass (Low Mid/Mid Bass) frequencies.
Pick Your Poison
Food For Thought.
15's frequency response can go up to 1K, where as an 18
stops at 300Hz.
Inpact/Punch heart is @ 80Hz, however, its starts at 1Khz
(Kick Drums upper harmonics) so, this is one of the reasons,
why 15's have the edge.
Another, as you mentioned, is the mass. For an eighteen to
move very fast, the BL factor needs to be extremely high.
So, considering manufacters make an 18 inch motor on a 15
inch chassis, which speaker will offer a better control?
There's also, an issue with power here. You can probably get away with using an 18 for punchy/impact bass at low
power, but, start feeding it 1000+ watts power, and, you
will hear the difference.
Bigger Magnet = Better Control, Tighter Bass, but, not the
best for ultra low frequencies
Smaller Magnet = Less Control, Sub Low Bass, but, not the
best for upper bass (Low Mid/Mid Bass) frequencies.
Pick Your Poison
Food For Thought.
are u saying many 18s are made on a 15 chassis causing slowness? i personaly havent build or heard a proper 18 so cant say.
🙁
🙁
Hey again Omni
Hey Omni!
> 18's are slow comparrison to 15's.
To what degree are they slow?
Large woofers simply are not slow. How do we define "slowness"? Most people refer to transient response when they say this, yet MANY people dont have the facts right about what transient response actually means - it simple refers to how quickly the woofer stops after the input signal stops (some people also call high group delay designs slow for this reason) This is what is generally defined as "slowness".
Large woofers are not slow (providing they are not piece os SH*T of course!). Large, quality transducers such as 18"s with powerful, quality amps sound equally good as smaller drivers, or even better. Using a quality amp is a must.
"15's frequency response can go up to 1K, where as an 18
stops at 300Hz. "
The high frequency rolloff (which can include xover) which you have stated above refers to how quickly the woofer starts. But either way, quality woofers with quality amps sound outstanding.
Adrian
Hey Omni!
> 18's are slow comparrison to 15's.
To what degree are they slow?
Large woofers simply are not slow. How do we define "slowness"? Most people refer to transient response when they say this, yet MANY people dont have the facts right about what transient response actually means - it simple refers to how quickly the woofer stops after the input signal stops (some people also call high group delay designs slow for this reason) This is what is generally defined as "slowness".
Large woofers are not slow (providing they are not piece os SH*T of course!). Large, quality transducers such as 18"s with powerful, quality amps sound equally good as smaller drivers, or even better. Using a quality amp is a must.
"15's frequency response can go up to 1K, where as an 18
stops at 300Hz. "
The high frequency rolloff (which can include xover) which you have stated above refers to how quickly the woofer starts. But either way, quality woofers with quality amps sound outstanding.
Adrian
I'm saying in order to get a fast 18, you need a huge magnet, and a tight suspension. But, you will lose the low end rumble in which 18's are known for.
Here we have two 15's (Sorry. all my 18's are boxed up) The Celestion is using an 18 inch motor, and, the EV is using the traditional EV motor.
Although both XMAX are the same, the EV will give you a
stronger (Volume) than the Celestion in lower frequencies.
The Celestion however, will give you a tighter bass, due to
better control (Larger Magnet)
Suspension wise, the Celestion is stiffer which plays a major roll on how fast the woofer moves. (Sorry.
I forgot to mention that in the pervious thread) The Celestion can play lower frequencies, but, not as loud as the EV, due to having to much control at lower frequencies. This is where the EV shines, because of having less control, it can play 50, 40, 30, 20 better. The Celestion will cut off these frequencies faster than the EV due to being too accurate, where as the EV will let the frequency hang around a little longer, achieving the fundamentals.
Here we have two 15's (Sorry. all my 18's are boxed up) The Celestion is using an 18 inch motor, and, the EV is using the traditional EV motor.
Although both XMAX are the same, the EV will give you a
stronger (Volume) than the Celestion in lower frequencies.
The Celestion however, will give you a tighter bass, due to
better control (Larger Magnet)
Suspension wise, the Celestion is stiffer which plays a major roll on how fast the woofer moves. (Sorry.
I forgot to mention that in the pervious thread) The Celestion can play lower frequencies, but, not as loud as the EV, due to having to much control at lower frequencies. This is where the EV shines, because of having less control, it can play 50, 40, 30, 20 better. The Celestion will cut off these frequencies faster than the EV due to being too accurate, where as the EV will let the frequency hang around a little longer, achieving the fundamentals.
Attachments
What about the Suspension.
I see a foam, or is that rubber surround. There's nothing
tight when using those kind of surrounds. Thats why you
see Foam/Rubber surrounds on Subwoofers, and, not woofers.
I see a foam, or is that rubber surround. There's nothing
tight when using those kind of surrounds. Thats why you
see Foam/Rubber surrounds on Subwoofers, and, not woofers.
"Inpact/Punch heart is @ 80Hz, however, its starts at 1Khz
(Kick Drums upper harmonics) so, this is one of the reasons,
why 15's have the edge."
Who in the whole wide world uses a 15" or 18" driver for 1k???
I would assume on top of a 18", a 8"-10"midbass first and then a pure midrange, 5"-7"(or bass mid) at 1k... and for the highest frequencies I´ll wote for a tweeter 🙂
Not that I´ve used a 15" or 18" but in the end it comes down to, what kind of box or alignment is used = Q and room interaction.
I think what makes many people feel a small bass drivers sounds faster, is because it doesn´t have any low bass, and if the lowest frequencies is missing from a recording that actually have them, then the sound is "faster". Low bass can never sound fast, it´s slow by nature. Tightness is another thing but that is about the box and room. A dipole often better than a box and room acoustc tools make more difference than anything else since the room modes are slower than any decent bass alignment.
There are low Q 15"ers and there are high Q 7"ers, where the 15" would sound tighter, and maybe also a little "faster" 🙂.
/Peter
(Kick Drums upper harmonics) so, this is one of the reasons,
why 15's have the edge."
Who in the whole wide world uses a 15" or 18" driver for 1k???
I would assume on top of a 18", a 8"-10"midbass first and then a pure midrange, 5"-7"(or bass mid) at 1k... and for the highest frequencies I´ll wote for a tweeter 🙂
Not that I´ve used a 15" or 18" but in the end it comes down to, what kind of box or alignment is used = Q and room interaction.
I think what makes many people feel a small bass drivers sounds faster, is because it doesn´t have any low bass, and if the lowest frequencies is missing from a recording that actually have them, then the sound is "faster". Low bass can never sound fast, it´s slow by nature. Tightness is another thing but that is about the box and room. A dipole often better than a box and room acoustc tools make more difference than anything else since the room modes are slower than any decent bass alignment.
There are low Q 15"ers and there are high Q 7"ers, where the 15" would sound tighter, and maybe also a little "faster" 🙂.
/Peter
pan-interesting! comparing what we hear to what we can prove with signal analysis.
is it our perception that confuses it up 😛
🙂
is it our perception that confuses it up 😛
🙂The surround is foam, but the cone is lightened and works only up to 200Hz in dipole config.
Current drive makes Qes very high, so Qms will be dominant. With Qms <2 and current drive, the rising impedance at resonance almost compensate for baffle loss.
Current drive makes Qes very high, so Qms will be dominant. With Qms <2 and current drive, the rising impedance at resonance almost compensate for baffle loss.
Pan.
While I'll agree on the Speakers Q's, and, box tuning will
make a difference, I have one gripe. Do you honestly
believe that the upper harmonics on a kick drum will not
be effected if you reduce the 1KHz (Being the Highest
harmonic frequency note used in a kick drum) on your EQ?
Punch/Impact works hand and hand. Loose those upper harmonics, and, lose all the Impact.
Since we are talking 18's and 15's here, Major Speaker Manufacters make 15 inch drivers for Mid Bass use, and,
bass use. Thats why you will see companies offering a
minimum of 2 different kinds of 15's. You can tell by the
the BL factor, and, the QTS for starters.
Cannot compare a 7 inch High Q speaker, to a 15 inch
Low Q speaker, the size difference alone will make the
15 win, in the punchy bass department. (Apples to Oranges)
Best Regards,
While I'll agree on the Speakers Q's, and, box tuning will
make a difference, I have one gripe. Do you honestly
believe that the upper harmonics on a kick drum will not
be effected if you reduce the 1KHz (Being the Highest
harmonic frequency note used in a kick drum) on your EQ?
Punch/Impact works hand and hand. Loose those upper harmonics, and, lose all the Impact.
Since we are talking 18's and 15's here, Major Speaker Manufacters make 15 inch drivers for Mid Bass use, and,
bass use. Thats why you will see companies offering a
minimum of 2 different kinds of 15's. You can tell by the
the BL factor, and, the QTS for starters.
Cannot compare a 7 inch High Q speaker, to a 15 inch
Low Q speaker, the size difference alone will make the
15 win, in the punchy bass department. (Apples to Oranges)
Best Regards,
fcserei said:
So in other words, you just using a smaller box, and have a
high hump at the given frequency. correct?
mike,
can you clarify please, I don´t get you really, the language yoiu know..
OMNIFEX,
off course the high harmonics (up to god knows how high) affect the impact on drum and other sounds, either you misunderstod me or I had sloppy language 🙂
Mocking around with a tweeter x-over around 2k made a big difference on how I perceive upright bass and drums.
Also what I meant with the 7" and 15" example was that cone area in itself says little about how "fast" and tight the sound will be.
/Peter
can you clarify please, I don´t get you really, the language yoiu know..
OMNIFEX,
off course the high harmonics (up to god knows how high) affect the impact on drum and other sounds, either you misunderstod me or I had sloppy language 🙂
Mocking around with a tweeter x-over around 2k made a big difference on how I perceive upright bass and drums.
Also what I meant with the 7" and 15" example was that cone area in itself says little about how "fast" and tight the sound will be.
/Peter
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