As a follow-up to my question on a good USB external soundcard:
I see some advertised as 24bit-196kHz sampling, and they have 24/196 capable ADCs and DACs but then the USB interface is spec'ed as 24/96. So what does that mean?
For measurement purposes I assume that the measurement app like RMAA or ARTA reads the digital values from the ADC and write the output values to the DAC, and that this has nothing to do with the 24/96 USB spec which is a spec for replaying audio from the PC through the USB.
So is this true; can I use the 24/196 from the sound card itself for measurement, even if the USB spec is 24/96?
jan
I see some advertised as 24bit-196kHz sampling, and they have 24/196 capable ADCs and DACs but then the USB interface is spec'ed as 24/96. So what does that mean?
For measurement purposes I assume that the measurement app like RMAA or ARTA reads the digital values from the ADC and write the output values to the DAC, and that this has nothing to do with the 24/96 USB spec which is a spec for replaying audio from the PC through the USB.
So is this true; can I use the 24/196 from the sound card itself for measurement, even if the USB spec is 24/96?
jan
I've read somewhere on this forum that someone made some test on it and the conclusion was if your op system is 64 bit (he used win7 x64) the measurement worked on 192kHz/24 bit but on an os x86 it was limited to 96/24.
That's odd. I do know that there's a newer USB audio spec which supports higher bandwidths, but if so, I would expect it to be supported in both 32 and 64 bit versions of the same OS equally.
BTW, I find sample rate handling in Vista onwards to be rather cumbersome. At least Realtek was smart enough to give the settings a spot in their control app, but some other cards are a real pain to handle. A Live! 24-Bit has you wade through the standard Windows dialogs for playback and recording devices to set sample rate, and then you have to go into Creative's own control panel app to set the sample rate the hardware will be working at. What a pain in the rear end.
That card's a little cranky in general, but then again it used to be the cheapest model supporting 24/96 recording, which it actually does pretty well. Paired up with the DAC of a Realtek HD Audio codec of the better kind (their ADCs tend to be OK but nothing much to write home about), you've got a pretty decent basis for a budget measurement setup.
BTW, I find sample rate handling in Vista onwards to be rather cumbersome. At least Realtek was smart enough to give the settings a spot in their control app, but some other cards are a real pain to handle. A Live! 24-Bit has you wade through the standard Windows dialogs for playback and recording devices to set sample rate, and then you have to go into Creative's own control panel app to set the sample rate the hardware will be working at. What a pain in the rear end.
That card's a little cranky in general, but then again it used to be the cheapest model supporting 24/96 recording, which it actually does pretty well. Paired up with the DAC of a Realtek HD Audio codec of the better kind (their ADCs tend to be OK but nothing much to write home about), you've got a pretty decent basis for a budget measurement setup.
Jan I think it depends on the drivers and the connection. For example, even with the ASIO drivers my M-Audio USB tops out at 48KHz full duplex. In a single direction it will do 96K/24bit. That seems to be the limit of USB-1 and the driver won't go higher. USB-2 or 3 should have not problem at all with that rate. I have USB-2 ports, but the driver doesn't seem to care or take advantage of them.
The M-Audio Firewire cards will do the higher rates full duplex and multichannel.
The M-Audio Firewire cards will do the higher rates full duplex and multichannel.
Yes the Firewire cards generally would do well, according to the specs.
It's just that I try to hold off to buy a new laptop just because I need Firewire ..🙁
Edit: Just got confirmation that the EMU0404 'beta driver' for W7 is flaky and cannot be trusted upon for continuous reliable operation...
jan
It's just that I try to hold off to buy a new laptop just because I need Firewire ..🙁
Edit: Just got confirmation that the EMU0404 'beta driver' for W7 is flaky and cannot be trusted upon for continuous reliable operation...
jan
Update: did a lot of 'net searching, and came to the conclusion that finding a sub-$ 200 external USB sound card with dependable performance on W7 at 192kHz will be pretty impossible.
As noted, the EMU 0404 W7/64bit driver is flaky and development has been non-existent for 2 years.
The EMU 0204 driver for W7/64 IS released but reading experiences from users, you take your chances. Some have lots of issues, some are very content.
But with the situation with the 0404 I am not confident that EMU will for instance update the driver when W8 is realeased, or would be trying to force me to buy yet another box.
I then started to search for a 912kHz full duplex USB box with compatible drivers, and you quickly end up in Pro land with accompanying prices.
Then I found the RME Fireface UC. RME mostly build FireWire-interfaced external sound cards, which are very well regarded. Multi-channel (which I don't need), and capable of at least two-channel at 192kHz I/O. Their lowest-cost FireWire is the FireFace 400 but some time ago they came out with a USB 2.0 version of the '400, the FireFace UC, which has all the 400 features but with a USB interface. Drivers for all Win and Mac OS versions currently available. Great specs, like freq response flat out to 80kHz (at 192kHz sampling) and good dynamic range and THD figures.
Only drawback: $ 1200 price. Then again, it has some nice LEDs on the front panel 😉 .
OTOH, for that money I could buy a FireWire-box AND a new laptop...
Ohh well.
Just ordered one. Will update this thread when I get it and put it through its paces.
jan
As noted, the EMU 0404 W7/64bit driver is flaky and development has been non-existent for 2 years.
The EMU 0204 driver for W7/64 IS released but reading experiences from users, you take your chances. Some have lots of issues, some are very content.
But with the situation with the 0404 I am not confident that EMU will for instance update the driver when W8 is realeased, or would be trying to force me to buy yet another box.
I then started to search for a 912kHz full duplex USB box with compatible drivers, and you quickly end up in Pro land with accompanying prices.
Then I found the RME Fireface UC. RME mostly build FireWire-interfaced external sound cards, which are very well regarded. Multi-channel (which I don't need), and capable of at least two-channel at 192kHz I/O. Their lowest-cost FireWire is the FireFace 400 but some time ago they came out with a USB 2.0 version of the '400, the FireFace UC, which has all the 400 features but with a USB interface. Drivers for all Win and Mac OS versions currently available. Great specs, like freq response flat out to 80kHz (at 192kHz sampling) and good dynamic range and THD figures.
Only drawback: $ 1200 price. Then again, it has some nice LEDs on the front panel 😉 .
OTOH, for that money I could buy a FireWire-box AND a new laptop...
Ohh well.
Just ordered one. Will update this thread when I get it and put it through its paces.
jan
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Nice Jan. Do let us know.
Indeed USB seems to be a limiting factor for this task.
For anyone willing to go firewire, this is a nice and relatively affordable choice. Great tech in there.
I'm holding off all my digital-related purchases. Will probably look into a long term solution and go for Metric Halo LIO or ULN 8...
Indeed USB seems to be a limiting factor for this task.
For anyone willing to go firewire, this is a nice and relatively affordable choice. Great tech in there.
I'm holding off all my digital-related purchases. Will probably look into a long term solution and go for Metric Halo LIO or ULN 8...
Heh, heh, I get the same performance from PCI for under $150. I can spend the rest on coke and hookers.
Jan, what exactly is your problem with the emu0404?
Can you measure anything at all, or just not particular sample rates or what?
Can you measure anything at all, or just not particular sample rates or what?
I don't know why some would say E-MU driver is unreliable for 0404, I have the SAME driver for 1820 and is flawless. The DSP patch software requires some learning for somebody that never used a real mixing console or never used ASIO... ASIO is a must for highest quality 24/96 and 24/192, luckly Foobar2000 has a plug in for that.
I have done some measurements in unballanced mode with the default dock. Now, I just sold the 1820 dock to upgrade to 1820m one. 100$ extra for a little more "negative db" in THD+N 🙂
Another good EMU card is 1212m. Same master-grade ADC, way less inputs/outputs but less expensive.
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/creative-emu-1820/index.html
Software used: RMAA and Arta. Arta is a little easyer to use and I think more accurate...
I have done some measurements in unballanced mode with the default dock. Now, I just sold the 1820 dock to upgrade to 1820m one. 100$ extra for a little more "negative db" in THD+N 🙂
Another good EMU card is 1212m. Same master-grade ADC, way less inputs/outputs but less expensive.
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/creative-emu-1820/index.html
Software used: RMAA and Arta. Arta is a little easyer to use and I think more accurate...
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Can you set it to 24b & 192kHz sampling rate? I have heard from others who 'got it working' on W7/64 but with limitations or instable performance.
jan
I have found another 24b/192k USB external card, the Terratec DMX_6Fire_USB . However, this is an older (2008) unit, and the manual only talks about drivers and installation on XP and Vista systems. The website somewhere mentions 'W7', but after my experiences with the EMU I'm not going to take the chance. YMMV.
jan
jan
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