Hi Everyone, I just ordered 4x Dayton RS225-8 since they're on a good sale at parts express right now. I want to build a 3 way with them covering the low end, 2x in parallel for a ~4ohm load, 92.8 dB sensitivity 2.83V/1m. I might try building with the Dayton DSPB series DSP and amplification to make them active - always done passive before, so I thought it'd be a fun new thing to try.
I'm wondering what all of your thoughts are with respect to a couple midrange options I'm considering. I'm probably going to use the Fountek NeoCD3.5H as the tweeter.
The first option is 2x RS125-8 in parallel, running it as an MTMWW. I like this option because the voicing will match the woofers very well, their sensitivity is the same as the RS225-8, and it's only $30ish per driver. Downside is that it's 2 drivers, not 1, so I'd thinking imaging might not turn out quite as good (would TMMWW be better?)
The other option I find intriguing is 1x Satori MR16P-4. Pros here are that it's a single driver, so no vertical lobing to worry about, it's supposed to be an amazing mid range and it's 92.5 dB 2.83V/1m so it's a good match there for the 2x RS225-8. Downsides, it costs $100 more than a pair of RS125, and it's not an aluminum cone, which I imagine will result in worse timbre matching with the woofers and aluminum ribbon tweeter. I do usually like paper mids though.
Do these options sound like they'll pair well with the tweeter? Is either one significantly better than the other? Are there more options I should consider? I wouldn't want to go more expensive than the 2x Satori @ $300 total for midranges.
Thanks in advance for putting all your collective wisdom to work helping me out!
I'm wondering what all of your thoughts are with respect to a couple midrange options I'm considering. I'm probably going to use the Fountek NeoCD3.5H as the tweeter.
The first option is 2x RS125-8 in parallel, running it as an MTMWW. I like this option because the voicing will match the woofers very well, their sensitivity is the same as the RS225-8, and it's only $30ish per driver. Downside is that it's 2 drivers, not 1, so I'd thinking imaging might not turn out quite as good (would TMMWW be better?)
The other option I find intriguing is 1x Satori MR16P-4. Pros here are that it's a single driver, so no vertical lobing to worry about, it's supposed to be an amazing mid range and it's 92.5 dB 2.83V/1m so it's a good match there for the 2x RS225-8. Downsides, it costs $100 more than a pair of RS125, and it's not an aluminum cone, which I imagine will result in worse timbre matching with the woofers and aluminum ribbon tweeter. I do usually like paper mids though.
Do these options sound like they'll pair well with the tweeter? Is either one significantly better than the other? Are there more options I should consider? I wouldn't want to go more expensive than the 2x Satori @ $300 total for midranges.
Thanks in advance for putting all your collective wisdom to work helping me out!
I have the Satori MR16's. They are great but maybe you could go with the smaller version (MR13...)? Instead of "baffle" step; I have used 2 woofers in parallel, 1 or 2 mids in series. This gives you bass boost. Usually, a 4 Ohm mid has a higher output than it's 8 Ohm version. What are the approximate X/O frequencies between woofer and mid? Between mid and tweeter? (that you were thinking of?). Another option might be 2 of the SB12MNRX2??? Not Satori but still very good quality.
Another thought, it depends on the driver dimensions, X/O frequencies, etc. A nice option top to bottom is MTWW rather than the usual TMWW. I prefer the sound pattern of MTWW but if you have concerns about the height of the tweeter vs. your ear height, it may not work for you. Usually ribbons have a much narrower vertical "dispersion" than AMT's and regular dome tweeters. And, there is always MTMWW; I even have done an 8 inch 3-way WMTMW with a ribbon tweeter at exactly ear height when seated. Very good results with this pattern as well. The woofers where two 8 Ohm in parallel, mids two 8 Ohm in series crossed at 400 Hz. Perfect balance, no attenuation or baffle step required. That was a long time ago so I can't remember the exact sensitivities of the drivers but probably something like 87 to 89 dB on the woofers and 89 to 91 on the mids. The tweeter was 93 to 94 dB so I could pad it down if needed.
I'd go with a single SB mid one of the 4-6" mids, I prefer single mids. An of the mr13, mr16, mnrx2, nbac would do. You may want to consider an 8ohm mid to make the impedance manageable.
I was planning to XO around 300 Hz and 2-2.5 kHz. Interesting idea with running the mid in series with the woofers. Might try simulating it to see what it looks like. The woofer would start to beam a bit though.
I would use one of the other options listed except that I want a minimum sensitivity on the mid of 92.5 dB to take advantage of the sensitivity of the woofers as much as possible... hence the two options I listed. Could consider running 2x of the smaller SB mids though, but like you mordikai I prefer a single mid. I also would prefer a 4-5" mid since that would give more extended treble before beaming starts, but I haven't seen any drivers of that size that meet my sensitivity requirements.
Luckily, 4 ohm nominal impedance works fine for all of my amplification options, but I'll make sure to keep an eye on it in simulations to make sure it doesn't dip too low. Still not sure if I'll go active or passive on this. Seems like a project that could benefit from DSP and if I'm doing DSP, I may as well just go active.
Good to know that the ribbon will have limited vertical dispersion, I'll make sure to position it right at ear height.
I would use one of the other options listed except that I want a minimum sensitivity on the mid of 92.5 dB to take advantage of the sensitivity of the woofers as much as possible... hence the two options I listed. Could consider running 2x of the smaller SB mids though, but like you mordikai I prefer a single mid. I also would prefer a 4-5" mid since that would give more extended treble before beaming starts, but I haven't seen any drivers of that size that meet my sensitivity requirements.
Luckily, 4 ohm nominal impedance works fine for all of my amplification options, but I'll make sure to keep an eye on it in simulations to make sure it doesn't dip too low. Still not sure if I'll go active or passive on this. Seems like a project that could benefit from DSP and if I'm doing DSP, I may as well just go active.
Good to know that the ribbon will have limited vertical dispersion, I'll make sure to position it right at ear height.
your mid probably doesn't need to be 92.5db, 89-90 will probably be just right after baffle step losses on the woofers. You could always put the woofers in a test box and measure them to see where the mid needs to be sensitivity wise.
If you really want the sensitivity the 4ohm mr16 is probably the best bet and it's small for a 6".
I'd be inclined to try this one - 4” SB12MNRX2-25-4, seems to have a really nice response and legit 90db+ sensitivity.
If you really want the sensitivity the 4ohm mr16 is probably the best bet and it's small for a 6".
I'd be inclined to try this one - 4” SB12MNRX2-25-4, seems to have a really nice response and legit 90db+ sensitivity.
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Thanks for the suggestion,that one does look nice. I'll try modeling it based on the spec sheet and see how it meshes when accounting for baffle step. Any idea where it can be bought in the US? Don't see it at Madisound or Meniscus.
Would the Dayton mid range dome work for you?
Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 2" Reference Aluminum Dome Midrange
I've enjoyed it in my center channel (zaph audio ZD3C) and have found it to be particularly good with vocals. May not be as good a fit with your woofer choice, but thought it was worth considering.
Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 2" Reference Aluminum Dome Midrange
I've enjoyed it in my center channel (zaph audio ZD3C) and have found it to be particularly good with vocals. May not be as good a fit with your woofer choice, but thought it was worth considering.
If you have a supplier within your country with stock available and it looks like what you want go for it. You don't know when borders will open up and not all businesses will be around when this virus is done. Like audio businesses were so rich before this all started.
I have been watching PE stock for one driver. It constantly moves out in time for estimated availability and if US/China get into a P****** match (likely, and probably smart) a lot of stock won't be available soon.
I have been watching PE stock for one driver. It constantly moves out in time for estimated availability and if US/China get into a P****** match (likely, and probably smart) a lot of stock won't be available soon.
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You can try to ask Madisound and Meniscus both either via phone or e mail. Sometimes; depending on what it is; they can get drivers for you that they don't always normally stock. Solen is easy to deal with; I have used them many times. The prices are in Canadian dollars so check the exchange rate. Usually, the credit cards have their own exchange rates as opposed to cash; the exchange rate will be when the credit card company sees this; not necessarily the same day you place your order (most likely NOT the same day). Anyway, the US dollar is usually stronger; today, 100 Canadian dollars is approximately equal to $71.47 US.
The worst part is the shipping charges; especially if you have heavy or bulky items. For tweeters, mids, crossover parts; I choose Canada Post (standard not tracked). They will track it only until it enters the US unless you pay extra for full tracking (I never found that to be necessary; haven't lost an order from them yet!). If you need large woofers, etc. from them; the shipping costs can get way out of hand!
Take a very close look at the MR16 white cone; the specs are slightly different than the regular MR16. Look at the curves; 91 dB is probably more accurate than 92 or 92.5 for the entire operating range.
You can always choose two 8 Ohm mids (like the SB12...) and wire them in parallel for increased sensitivity then pad down or a simple series resistor to match everything up. I do like two smaller mids on either side of a tweeter; especially ribbons (D'Appolito configuration). Some people love this config.; other's hate it...just another option; at least then you should have plenty of sensitivity in the mids giving you more flexibilty in matching levels with the woofers and tweeter; gives more flexibilty in X/O, baffle step, etc. I always try to choose a higher output tweeter for the same reason; you can pad it down. Lots of choices; have fun after all...(one last thought; there is a swap meet here on this site so if you DO buy something, don't like them, you can always do a trade or sell them for something else)...
Try PRV 5MR450NDY if you need 92dB - pad it down from 94dB. Great wide bandwidth low distortion driver.
Curt/Jim just did a new design called the 'Travelers' which uses the RS225 along with the SB15CAC and Hiq OW2. Jim speaks very highly of the 225/CAC combo. From the datasheets the NBAC 'should be' basically identical, but the CAC drivers do seem to be amassing quite a following. I have the NBAC version here to prototype with the 225, but haven't gotten to measurements yet.
The MR13 is definitely an option too. I've been listening to a design with the 8545 recently, and if the SB designers have managed to pull from that DNA in the Satori line, it should be very good.
I'd need 2 of them to get the sensitivity in the range I want. Might be easier if I just turned this whole thing into a 3.5 way, that'd open up a ton of amazing mid range options like the RS52AN 😀
I'll take a look. Thanks for the pointer, Ugg10.
I always forget to check Solen for some reason 😕. That might be a great option. Good call on the exchange rate, I hadn't really thought about that, even though some Canadians I work with love the ~40% raise it basically gives them (I live near Canada). I'll check what the pricing looks like with shipping, and I'll try calling Madisound and Meniscus.
I don't think I've ever heard a D'Appolito array before apart from a center channel, might be a fun method to try if the single mid doesn't end up very feasible. It would definitely increase the options available in the midrange.
Thanks everyone for all the great thoughts and suggestions so far! I really appreciate it. I notice nobody has really commented on the 2x RS125 midrange idea I had... Is this because you all think that other options are significantly better, especially if we're going with 2x midrange drivers?
I'll take a look, thanks for the suggestion. I'm not as familiar with "professional" driver brands - are there any that are exceptionally good or bad to know about? I've heard good things about Faital and B&C. Not familiar with PRV though (yet!).
I'll take a look at the Travelers. I've used the SB15NAC in a previous design - great driver! I'm interested to hear the CAC sometime, and it's good to know it's a good match with the RS225.
A couple thoughts that might impact your driver decisions. As noted, Curt and I have used RS225's extensively in the Statements (I&II), Anthology's, Finalists, Bordeaux and Travelers (4 ohm). After baffle step is deducted, you'll end up with 87 - 88 db sensitivity. Using a really sensitive mid or tweeter will always require them to be padded down with resistors to match the 87 -88 DB sensitivity of the bass drivers.
I'm a SB driver fan these days. My favorites are the CAC 5" & 6" for midrange duty. Super clean, crisp, smooth and accurate sounding to my ears. The Satori's are excellent and sound great but to my ears, the CAC's have an edge. That is my personal preference, YMMV...
We've also used ribbons a lot. Long ribbons tend to beam the longer they are. Shorter (3" or less) are similar to 1" domes in vertical dispersion but "most" need to be crossed higher than than you should consider crossing 5" or 6" drivers so a 4" driver is usually required. The Bozhen CQ76 ribbon Rick Craig at Selah Audio uses is an exception and can be crossed in the low 2K Hz. range with very low distortion. It's a nice ribbon that sounds great.
HA! You responded to DWK123 while I was typing.
HTH
Jim
I'm a SB driver fan these days. My favorites are the CAC 5" & 6" for midrange duty. Super clean, crisp, smooth and accurate sounding to my ears. The Satori's are excellent and sound great but to my ears, the CAC's have an edge. That is my personal preference, YMMV...
We've also used ribbons a lot. Long ribbons tend to beam the longer they are. Shorter (3" or less) are similar to 1" domes in vertical dispersion but "most" need to be crossed higher than than you should consider crossing 5" or 6" drivers so a 4" driver is usually required. The Bozhen CQ76 ribbon Rick Craig at Selah Audio uses is an exception and can be crossed in the low 2K Hz. range with very low distortion. It's a nice ribbon that sounds great.
HA! You responded to DWK123 while I was typing.
HTH
Jim
Thanks Jim, it's great to have your input, especially given your degree of experience with the RS225. Good to know my sensitivity expectations might be a bit high 🙂
I usually wouldn't consider using a 6 inch with the NeoCD3.5H, but since I'm leaning toward DSP that can go 48dB/octave I thought it might be workable due to the very small overlap needed. Of course that really limits things if I ever want to convert it to passive, and I'm not sure uow the amplification quality is on the Dayton DSPB series either. I'd hate for the build to not be able to perform like it should just because of low quality electronics. I guess I could buy the unamplified dps only components and pick up a good used multichannel amp for dedicated use with these 😀
I usually wouldn't consider using a 6 inch with the NeoCD3.5H, but since I'm leaning toward DSP that can go 48dB/octave I thought it might be workable due to the very small overlap needed. Of course that really limits things if I ever want to convert it to passive, and I'm not sure uow the amplification quality is on the Dayton DSPB series either. I'd hate for the build to not be able to perform like it should just because of low quality electronics. I guess I could buy the unamplified dps only components and pick up a good used multichannel amp for dedicated use with these 😀
The RS225-8 pairs exceptionally well with most wide band 3.5in full range drivers. Faital Pro 3FE25 or 3FE22 should make excellent 91dB alternatives. As a midrange they can go up to 15kHz if you needed so a 3kHz or 4kHz cross to a dome or ribbon is no problem.
I use the RS225 and 10F/8414 in a first order crossover and it sounds superb.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...25-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-95.html#post5305534
900Hz XO, flat phase and transient perfect.
I use the RS225 and 10F/8414 in a first order crossover and it sounds superb.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...25-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-95.html#post5305534
900Hz XO, flat phase and transient perfect.
I like the look of the 3FE25 and 22. I hadn't noticed when I lookes before that it's sensitivity is in 1w/1m, not 2.83V, so the 4 ohm should be plenty sensitive for my needs I'd think. Added bonus, if I use a passive XO, I could use the natural roll off at the bottom to cross to the woofer and avoid some expensive components!
I know this is subjective, but does anyone who has heard them have any thoughts about how the sound wiould compare to, say, an SB15NAC or other more "traditional hi-fi" mids? Asking because those are what I have as a reference point.