Hello,
Evryone, after your helps, lots of hour of research, it's appers I can't have a unique driver to cover greatly 40-400/500 Hz.
So I will probably split the problem :
- One driver up to 500/600 Hz, a 12" or 15" with high sensitivity (>97 dB / W /m), light MMS
- One driver for lower than 100 Hz, huge Xmax, heavye MMS
I suppose I could have a better system for the same or less price than a unique exceptionnel driver.
thank you 🙂
Evryone, after your helps, lots of hour of research, it's appers I can't have a unique driver to cover greatly 40-400/500 Hz.
So I will probably split the problem :
- One driver up to 500/600 Hz, a 12" or 15" with high sensitivity (>97 dB / W /m), light MMS
- One driver for lower than 100 Hz, huge Xmax, heavye MMS
I suppose I could have a better system for the same or less price than a unique exceptionnel driver.
thank you 🙂
Well of course if you know good value for 100 to 500 (12" or 10" ?) or for the sub <100Hz, i take 😉
driver sims
The attached are all small closed box sims.
I have tried ported / TL and sealed with dozens of divers over 30 years.... Sealed is best IMO.
Cheers
Derek.
The attached are all small closed box sims.
I have tried ported / TL and sealed with dozens of divers over 30 years.... Sealed is best IMO.
Cheers
Derek.
Hello,
Thank you ! Exactly what i'm looking for 🙂
Did you think I could have sealed box for :
- 100-500, little boxes, around 30 liters, with a 10" or 12" ?
- 35(40)-100 Hz with a boxe around 100 liters, if needed with a linkwtiz
🙂
Thank you ! Exactly what i'm looking for 🙂
Did you think I could have sealed box for :
- 100-500, little boxes, around 30 liters, with a 10" or 12" ?
- 35(40)-100 Hz with a boxe around 100 liters, if needed with a linkwtiz
🙂
sims for 12, 15 and 18 inch drivers covering 30Hz to 500Hz
Het Gug,
Here are real world sims for drivers that I know well and can highly recommend.
The RCF and Beyma are not too expensive and give amazing results.
The 18 inch PD driver is very expensive but I include it as a world class reference.
All sims are based on genuine AES continuous power / thermal ratings... Not smoke and mirrors audiophile driver ratings!
All use small volume sealed box loading ( please use 24mm birch ply and NOT 18mm MDF!) and they will reward you with sublime bass / low midrange performance.
Enjoy!
Cheers
Derek.
Het Gug,
Here are real world sims for drivers that I know well and can highly recommend.
The RCF and Beyma are not too expensive and give amazing results.
The 18 inch PD driver is very expensive but I include it as a world class reference.
All sims are based on genuine AES continuous power / thermal ratings... Not smoke and mirrors audiophile driver ratings!
All use small volume sealed box loading ( please use 24mm birch ply and NOT 18mm MDF!) and they will reward you with sublime bass / low midrange performance.
Enjoy!
Cheers
Derek.
My AE TD15S do 40Hz in room sealed with no EQ in about 140L/driver (volume from memory). With a pair a side, they play plenty loud.
That said, I still cross them to some large subs at 60Hz. I do still prefer splitting the midbass around 80Hz and having a specialised driver to handle each side of the divide.
12 inch driver sim
I agree with Brett, if you have the money and space crossover at 80Hz or so and use true dedicated subs ( 18 inch PD drivers) and use 12 or 15 inch to cover the 80Hz to 500 Hz or 600Hz band.
Here is the best 12 inch driver sim... this is all your dreams come true over the 80 to 600Hz band... But it needs a very capable 500 Watt to 1KW amp!
Cheers
D.
I agree with Brett, if you have the money and space crossover at 80Hz or so and use true dedicated subs ( 18 inch PD drivers) and use 12 or 15 inch to cover the 80Hz to 500 Hz or 600Hz band.
Here is the best 12 inch driver sim... this is all your dreams come true over the 80 to 600Hz band... But it needs a very capable 500 Watt to 1KW amp!
Cheers
D.
Another alternative is 6th order ported (note, NOT bandpass). A JBL2226 in about 40L tuned to 40Hz has an F3 around 40Hz, then rolls off steeply. The Q=2 HPF added to flatten the response in the smaller than usual enclosure also has the advantage of limiting excursion below tune which as well as protecting the driver from damage from signals blow tune also subjectively clears up the midbass from these signals (and they are often present, usually unintentionally). I've played these to a number of people over the years who don't like ported speakers and they haven't picked them as ported.
H/T; djk and Don Keele.
H/T; djk and Don Keele.
On this one I do not agree with Brett.... IMO never, ever go ported!
Like for like £ for £ I believe sealed is always better.... The time domain is all that counts .... Simple increase in air pressure (compression) followed by a decrease (rarefaction) in air pressure back to ambient.
All forms delayed resonance loading ie Ports, back loaded horns, transmission lines, passive radiators etc do is to add out of phase (time delayed) energy back into the system.
Yes your SPL meter will read "more" SPL at certain low frequencies, BUT it is not accurate and our ear brain decodes it as an unnatural distortion.
Cheers
D.
Like for like £ for £ I believe sealed is always better.... The time domain is all that counts .... Simple increase in air pressure (compression) followed by a decrease (rarefaction) in air pressure back to ambient.
All forms delayed resonance loading ie Ports, back loaded horns, transmission lines, passive radiators etc do is to add out of phase (time delayed) energy back into the system.
Yes your SPL meter will read "more" SPL at certain low frequencies, BUT it is not accurate and our ear brain decodes it as an unnatural distortion.
Cheers
D.
My experience with this both domestically and in PA (ie a lot) says the opposite.
I have no religious aversion to stuff that actually works.
Domestic reproduction of lifelike sound Vs PA
I respect your right to disagree with me... But I do disagree with you 100%...
Both in domestic and live sound / event gigs.
The latter is dominated by cost ie all that counts is how get the lowest priced rig to reach the highest SPL / max coverage.... Personally I am more interested in the domestic reproduction of the most life like sound.
If someone was mad enough to give me the budget I could design a PA rig capable of throwing 120dB to 140dB over a 5,000 or 10,000 seat venue.... Need a lot of trucks to ship it though!
The attached is for the benefit of anyone new to the concept of time domain in sound, John explains it better than I do!
Cheers
D.
I respect your right to disagree with me... But I do disagree with you 100%...
Both in domestic and live sound / event gigs.
The latter is dominated by cost ie all that counts is how get the lowest priced rig to reach the highest SPL / max coverage.... Personally I am more interested in the domestic reproduction of the most life like sound.
If someone was mad enough to give me the budget I could design a PA rig capable of throwing 120dB to 140dB over a 5,000 or 10,000 seat venue.... Need a lot of trucks to ship it though!
The attached is for the benefit of anyone new to the concept of time domain in sound, John explains it better than I do!
Cheers
D.
Really? You ran the costings on my systems did you?
Don Keele's paper on this subject is on his website. Please feel free to dissect it and explain why he's wrong. It should make an interesting AES paper.
AES credibility
Didn,t know you had a system....Happy to take a look if you want to post details.
The basics of sound reproduction and time domain are explained in the John Watkinson paper I attached... For the benefit of anyone who is unfamiliar with his work....
He has been an AES member for over 40 years, fellow for 16 years, written 6 peer reviewed papers, given 4 talks, written several internationally respected books on audio and designed some very interesting systems indeed....
Now if you feel the need to cast doubt on his work thats up to you Brett, and I look forward to your AES paper proving him wrong... Personally I think he is right.
Cheers
D.
Didn,t know you had a system....Happy to take a look if you want to post details.
The basics of sound reproduction and time domain are explained in the John Watkinson paper I attached... For the benefit of anyone who is unfamiliar with his work....
He has been an AES member for over 40 years, fellow for 16 years, written 6 peer reviewed papers, given 4 talks, written several internationally respected books on audio and designed some very interesting systems indeed....
Now if you feel the need to cast doubt on his work thats up to you Brett, and I look forward to your AES paper proving him wrong... Personally I think he is right.
Cheers
D.
I find this paper somewhat confused (not confusing, just confused). There is a quote
"The only woofer design that is capable of being made time-accurate is the sealed enclosure"
But the Quad ESL63 is quoted several times as an example of a time accurate speaker. And it is definitely NOT a sealed enclosure.
Me, I only listen to open baffle speakers (assorted magneplanars and other designs based on cones) because that gives the nicest bass. Just like a Quad. Sealed boxes always have resonances that I find disturbing, they are not the best way to get accurate bass.
Quad ( and Manger driver) accurate step response
From memory John references the Quad (and Manger driver) as having very accurate step responses which are a good indicator of time domain accuracy.
They both struggle to reach any where near life-like SPL (105dB) in the bass.
As you correctly point out, John refers to "woofers in boxes" as they can be designed to handle high SPL at low frequencies.
Also he is focused on real world audio ie high WAF... No open baffle or free standing 500 volt radiators are ever going to be accepted by the majority of WAG's!
Cheers
D.
From memory John references the Quad (and Manger driver) as having very accurate step responses which are a good indicator of time domain accuracy.
They both struggle to reach any where near life-like SPL (105dB) in the bass.
As you correctly point out, John refers to "woofers in boxes" as they can be designed to handle high SPL at low frequencies.
Also he is focused on real world audio ie high WAF... No open baffle or free standing 500 volt radiators are ever going to be accepted by the majority of WAG's!
Cheers
D.
Maybe, Derek. The caveats you add are yours, while John's paper seems pretty solidly based on science and his conclusions about closed box vs ported speakers seems reasonable, I would give it more credit if he was explicit about assumptions and caveats rather than leave them for the reader to deduce. I didn't see any mention of WAGs in his paper, and even if he did - I might not agree. My WAG loves my OB speakers!!
Yep, that's 2 x 15" driver per channel Goes loud, and deep!
Yep, that's 2 x 15" driver per channel Goes loud, and deep!
Attachments
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Hello Evryone,
From my window a closed box is easyer to build, and no need to adjust the event and the internal damping.
And with my minidsp I can use linkwitz tranformation 🙂
Thank you for the list of speakers drivers, but a little bit pricely ...
Any opinion about thoses :
For 100 - 500
-------------------------------
monacor SPA-112PA :
MONACOR - Products - SPA-112PA
Monacor SP-30/200PA
MONACOR - Products - SP-30/200PA
Monacor SP-30-200 Neo
MONACOR - Products - SP-30/200NEO
For the subs < 100 Hz
----------------------------------------
Dayton RSS390HO or DVC385-88
Dayton UM15-22 Ultimax
Thank you in advance !
From my window a closed box is easyer to build, and no need to adjust the event and the internal damping.
And with my minidsp I can use linkwitz tranformation 🙂
Thank you for the list of speakers drivers, but a little bit pricely ...
Any opinion about thoses :
For 100 - 500
-------------------------------
monacor SPA-112PA :
MONACOR - Products - SPA-112PA
Monacor SP-30/200PA
MONACOR - Products - SP-30/200PA
Monacor SP-30-200 Neo
MONACOR - Products - SP-30/200NEO
For the subs < 100 Hz
----------------------------------------
Dayton RSS390HO or DVC385-88
Dayton UM15-22 Ultimax
Thank you in advance !
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