Back to the original question. It is simple physics that true bass can't be had from conventional dual cone drivers. If size and weight are an issue to the point of you changing out the subs for something smaller, go with a nice quality 5 1/4" or 6 1/2" sub. There are many that are designed as true subs, not like midrange or midbass drivers of the same sizes that come with component sets. When amplified and installed correctly, they can perform at surprising levels. Below is a link to one on sale that has gotten rave reviews.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-832
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-832
This is why diesel is an outstanding choice for cars. For a small sub though such as a 6 1/2" watch out as some are very hard to get proper bass response out of. (I had 2 and bass was horrible and raspy). I personally noticed that bigger sized speakers sound better for subs. I.e. My 8" with a non-tuned enclosure is better than my 3" with a tuned enclosure (including crossovers).
I can't get a small driver to produce enough db in a car. You might get a healthy 8" to do it, I tend to stick to a 10" minimum. They have so much roll off on the bottom you get nothing at say 30Hz. Otherwise I'd say go with the largest full range/comps you can like 6x9/8" coax/7x10/etc.
jol50 said:
Yes, all other things being equal, size does matter, but I believe many of us have a bias toward "smaller" drivers without really being willing to accept the fact that there are true subwoofers smaller than we are accustomed to seeing.
To me high SPL doesn't define low end. If it is present in the source, I can hear and feel 20hz just fine from my single 10", and it blends nicely with the rest of my system. Maybe not at 140dB, but I don't want a bass heavy set-up.
Depends on what the user wants. If someone wants to cave in their head, then probably 6 1/2"s aren't the way to go. But taking into account cabin gain and someone designing a system correctly, small subs are often better than their bigger counterparts in a vehicle environment.
I suggested the Tang Band subs because they certainly would be better than no subs, and that includes having any "full range" comps, unless you want to include some exotic, high priced 3-way system that is truly capable of some low end, which judging from the opening tone of this thread, seems to be out of the question $$$ wise.
Maybe properly ported, I just can't get the low Hz out of a small driver. I'd rather a single larger, a single 10 kind of can. Then again I insist on 30Hz so I don't like small drivers. You could run multiple small drivers but then why not run a larger with lower Fs and such. I rarely run my subs over 70Hz and ones I have now are at 45 low pass. A true sub IMO is 50 and under.
Note this car I have four 12s IB, they take up less usable room in my trunk than one 10 in a sealed .8sf. The two are not comparable in output, not at all. No, I don't need all the output I have now but I can get 20hz with ease and that is why I did it. Certainly car stereo is all about compromise, sometimes you do have to run what you can fit.
Note this car I have four 12s IB, they take up less usable room in my trunk than one 10 in a sealed .8sf. The two are not comparable in output, not at all. No, I don't need all the output I have now but I can get 20hz with ease and that is why I did it. Certainly car stereo is all about compromise, sometimes you do have to run what you can fit.
Cal Weldon said:
Calling these Tang Band "true subwoofers" is a stretch, I admit. I plead guilty to misusing the terminology.
What I was trying to get across is that when compared to a midwoofer or midrange in a component set, which are capable of 60-70hz, the TBs, while not capable of gut-wrenching bass, are nonetheless designed for use in that capacity, and it seems that they would fill the criteria of what is wanted in the original post. Something to go in a door panel or interior panel.
Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
I would agree, that is close as you will get using small driver. Gas is getting cheaper here though.
69CamaroSS396 said:
I am not challenging your definition but it seems to me the term is overused these days. When I was a young man a subwoofer was dictated by the Fs being 20Hz or below. It was cut and dry. We misused the term sub as in subsonic when we really meant infrasonic but it sticks with me. Nowadays, it seems to mean any long throw woofer.
Thanks for your answer, back to the regular scheduled programming.
If your a basshead like myself, you need not forget that bigger subs usually shake the car better. 69CamaroSS396, you said "Small subs are often better than their bigger counterparts in a vehicle environment". Is this from experience or just what you heard from others. I would have to disagree with your statement because from experience I put a properly tuned 6 1/2" enclosed woofer in a car and it did not sound nearly as good as a 12" or a 15" enclosed. Also bigger woofers sometimes make for more wattage going in. I.e.-12" is 800w at most from what I've seen but for 6 1/2" it's 200w at most. Just my humble opinion.
M50SNIPER said:
It is definitely from experience, but my experiences are in an effort to produce tight, clean bass that is well balanced with my front stage. No one loves nice, clean, deep bass more than I, but I am not a "basshead". My statement that you quoted has more to do with accurate reproduction of the source at the listener's position rather than going for huge SPL or shaking of the vehicle. As I mentioned earlier, to me huge SPL doesn't necessarily mean sound quality, and huge SPL also doesn't mean low, maybe just loud.
Everyone involved in car audio has their own reasons for assembling their system in a certain manner. All I strive for is for my system to have the CAPABILITY to reproduce what is in the source. My current system consists of a Clarion HX-D10 HU, old school Hifonics amps, old school a/d/s components, and an old school Clarion 10" sub. The sub is only being powered with 200 watts on a good day, but has a sensitivity of something like 94dB, so it can play quite loud, and is very well suited for the cab of a Ford pickup. The 94dB sensitivity is one of the keys. It will play as loudly being powered by 125 watts as a sub with 86dB sensitivity will play being powered by 500 watts.
Give me mids and highs to die for with properly balanced unmuddled, clean, tight bass and I'm a happy man.
By the way, even though I mentioned the Tang Bands, I doubt I could be happy with them myself. Just seemed to be suitable in this case.
I think every car should have woofers so large so you can turn up the volume, open the trunk or hatchback and use use your stereo to help cut fuel costs.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Cal Weldon said:
😀
I like to feel the music, but I'm old school that does not mean ear bleeding loud. I like some 10-35hz I can feel is all and little subs can't move enough air to do it...for a typical sub that is. To me tight bass means no low end extension. I tend to like ported or lots of IB, if possible to get in the vehicle.
Few in this forum would argue against large woofers, but the thread is:
"When a sub just can't be had"
At the risk of tar & feathers, I propose-
In a well-balanced system, what you hear of a bass note/sound is often a mix of sub-bass, bass, midbass, upper bass, midrange, etc.
Low B on 4 string bass is what, ~30Hz? Pop it and watch the result on an RTA or FFT. OK, well then think about what's likely to show up. It ain't gonna be a nice 30Hz sine wave that decays smoothly off into a moment ago.
Besides reproducing the lowest octaves, good sub bass is also a function of how well-balanced, articulate, and dynamic the rest of the system is.
If your system will deliver superbly to 60Hz or so at full throttle, the last octave and a half can be approximated well enough without using large woofers. No, not at 140dB, or even 120dB. But at loud listening levels. Maybe not for listening critically, but enough for simply enjoying the music.
Maybe I shouldn't have said that out loud...
"When a sub just can't be had"
At the risk of tar & feathers, I propose-
In a well-balanced system, what you hear of a bass note/sound is often a mix of sub-bass, bass, midbass, upper bass, midrange, etc.
Low B on 4 string bass is what, ~30Hz? Pop it and watch the result on an RTA or FFT. OK, well then think about what's likely to show up. It ain't gonna be a nice 30Hz sine wave that decays smoothly off into a moment ago.
Besides reproducing the lowest octaves, good sub bass is also a function of how well-balanced, articulate, and dynamic the rest of the system is.
If your system will deliver superbly to 60Hz or so at full throttle, the last octave and a half can be approximated well enough without using large woofers. No, not at 140dB, or even 120dB. But at loud listening levels. Maybe not for listening critically, but enough for simply enjoying the music.
Maybe I shouldn't have said that out loud...
LOL, well it depends on what you want. 🙂 I don't cut heads because music is so subjective, auto install and budgets are restrictive, and I don't really care what someone's car sounds like long as they are happy.tsmith1315 said:
That is true if you want "clean, unmuddled, smooth" whatever bass. Me, I want all the bass and if its at 20Hz, I want that too. If you want the full spectrum you can't get it with a 6.5 sub at enough db in a car to hear it....in a typical setup. They have so much roll off you just can't make them work low. If you don't want <40Hz in your car that is fine, but it is not all the sound, it is not all the SQ IMO. Sometimes you can't get it due to install. I also can't see a sub running over 60Hz it gets localized, I never have except in a trunk that cut higher sub frequency anyway.
People don't seem to understand, yes I can shake the car and do it on occasion for fun, but 99% of the time I don't. I use the capability to reach down, I need that much power and cone area to make 20Hz. When I play tones to me 20Hz and 50Hz sound like they are at the same db (by ear). 30-40 is just slightly louder and 60Hz goes to the mids. I'd say it is pretty flat to me, just what I want. Smaller subs are harder for me to blend because they peak so hard going into the mids, if you want low bass they blow the mids away....or you need a bunch of EQ, more EQ than large subs. They handle less power....the only benefit is a smaller box, but I don't have any box in my car with four 12s. I so hate cars I can't do that in...
On another audio site a guy says there is no 20Hz in most music. So I've been experimenting with some new but mostly 90s rock type music and a variety of styles. I listen to a CD and I crank the 20Hz slider on my 16 band EQ way up and way down. So far on everything I have listened to I could certainly tell a difference. I left the 31Hz and above adjustments alone. Not very scientific maybe but it makes the issue very clear to see, or rather, hear and sometimes feel. To me the low Hz have more of a presence in the car and not so much you hear it. Kids like to blast 50Hz, you hear that. My sub is crossed over at 45, as low as I can get it with this crossover but it does play above that due to rising efficiency...so the 50Hz is cut in the EQ as well.
IMO near every sub that does not sound good is because it has a peak in the response. So, the smoother it is out of the box the easier it is to tune.
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