I'm fairly new to PA systems and I tried my best to put something together while I was on a budget, but it's not performing nearly as well as I thought it would. Here's what I have:
Peavey PV6 unpowered mixer
Crown X1000 stereo 2x300W power amp
2 Cerwin Vega INT-152 Passive Speakers (Program 300 watts, peak 600 at 8 ohms)
Shure SM58 Microphone
The problem is that the system is not loud enough, and I begin to hear feedback once I turn it up too loud, even when the mic is behind the speakers. Could the feedback be due to the fact that we're using the PA in a small closed room?
There is volume control, but once my band starts playing the microphone is simply drowned out. We're only using the system for vocals right now.
We also don't have speaker stands, so we simply stack the speakers on top of each other like a tower. Would speaker stands make a huge difference in the sound?
We bought the mixer used for $60. PV6 retails at about $100 and we think that we may need a better one in order to get a better sound, but we're not entirely sure and we don't want to buy one unless we know its what we need.
Lastly, we bought the Cerwin Vega speakers used from a retired singer, so we think the speakers may be the problem. One of them pops occasionally, and they start to produce static when we turn the volume up.
Any help would be greatly appreciated by me and my band! We just want to have a working system already. Any tips or ideas?🙂
Peavey PV6 unpowered mixer
Crown X1000 stereo 2x300W power amp
2 Cerwin Vega INT-152 Passive Speakers (Program 300 watts, peak 600 at 8 ohms)
Shure SM58 Microphone
The problem is that the system is not loud enough, and I begin to hear feedback once I turn it up too loud, even when the mic is behind the speakers. Could the feedback be due to the fact that we're using the PA in a small closed room?
There is volume control, but once my band starts playing the microphone is simply drowned out. We're only using the system for vocals right now.
We also don't have speaker stands, so we simply stack the speakers on top of each other like a tower. Would speaker stands make a huge difference in the sound?
We bought the mixer used for $60. PV6 retails at about $100 and we think that we may need a better one in order to get a better sound, but we're not entirely sure and we don't want to buy one unless we know its what we need.
Lastly, we bought the Cerwin Vega speakers used from a retired singer, so we think the speakers may be the problem. One of them pops occasionally, and they start to produce static when we turn the volume up.
Any help would be greatly appreciated by me and my band! We just want to have a working system already. Any tips or ideas?🙂
If your limiting factor is feed back, I doubt whether spending money on a better mixer would help much. If the feedback's always at the same frequency, it might be worth getting an equaliser or dedicated antifeedback device to notch it out. If it's the speakers giving up (static? as in a sort of hiss? Or breakup?) then there's not much hope but getting them repaired, or replaced, and if it's the power amp…
With test gear it's frequently possible to find out where the weak link lies, without – do you know any other bands you could borrow gear from to try and find exactly where the problem's turning up?
the trouble with standing behind the speakers is that you can't hear yourself. You really need a more "stage monitor" set up, with at least one of the cabinets aimed at you; and that will bring in the feedback earlier. A small room isn't helping matters, either; I don't suppose you could get the other musicians to turn down a bit? No, I didn't think so.
Try something. Run a CD or mp3 player into line inputs on the little Peavey (which looks perfectly adequate for just vocals, and shouldn't be the limiting factor) and find out how loud the system will go before speaker distortion or amp clipping. Earplugs are recommended. Then get the drummer to play along with it. It should be clear if it's got the potential to match up with him. It should also be possible to find out what's giving up first, and I'm betting it won't be the mixer.
Into 8 ohms the Crown's only going to give half power, but even so, twice 150 watts should handle a rehearsal room. The Cerwin Vega's are rated at 800 watts, so if they're rattling, scraping or breaking up they're going to need serious attention (or screws tightening; not all problems are expensive).
Make sure sensitivities are balanced through the chain; it would be very embarrassing to discover the problem was that the mic sensitivity was too high, and the amp input sensitivity set too low.
With test gear it's frequently possible to find out where the weak link lies, without – do you know any other bands you could borrow gear from to try and find exactly where the problem's turning up?
the trouble with standing behind the speakers is that you can't hear yourself. You really need a more "stage monitor" set up, with at least one of the cabinets aimed at you; and that will bring in the feedback earlier. A small room isn't helping matters, either; I don't suppose you could get the other musicians to turn down a bit? No, I didn't think so.
Try something. Run a CD or mp3 player into line inputs on the little Peavey (which looks perfectly adequate for just vocals, and shouldn't be the limiting factor) and find out how loud the system will go before speaker distortion or amp clipping. Earplugs are recommended. Then get the drummer to play along with it. It should be clear if it's got the potential to match up with him. It should also be possible to find out what's giving up first, and I'm betting it won't be the mixer.
Into 8 ohms the Crown's only going to give half power, but even so, twice 150 watts should handle a rehearsal room. The Cerwin Vega's are rated at 800 watts, so if they're rattling, scraping or breaking up they're going to need serious attention (or screws tightening; not all problems are expensive).
Make sure sensitivities are balanced through the chain; it would be very embarrassing to discover the problem was that the mic sensitivity was too high, and the amp input sensitivity set too low.
Agree and add:
1) take it easy, what you comment is beginner's trouble, in a couple months you'll remember this and smile at yourself.
"Practice makes perfect".
2) the *big* difference with instrument amps is that if, say, your guitar is not heard, you turn it up and that's it, while on PA, turning up brings feedback, so you'll have to find a way around it.
And no, your cabinets do not "produce" hiss, they just "reproduce" what you send them.
And that occasional thump makes me think that you are using too much bass, hitting the mike when you sing, kicking the mic stand, or all of the above together.
3) to begin from the beginning: *first* of all you have to clean your act inside that small rehearsal room.
Meaning: "instrument" sound must be perfect before you even start to worry about *voice* sound.
And it's not a problem you can solve just by throwing watts at it 😱
Think about it a little: you are using a couple hundred watts inside a small room and it's a mess ... yet you listen to a song in a small Hi Fi speaker, driven by 15W , or worse, in a boombox, and you hear *everything* (guitar/bass/drums/voice/keys/brass/whatever).
How come? 😕
The trick lies in "the Mix", perfectly balancing each sound to all the others, so none drowns others, all are evenly heard.
Not easy, takes practice, but you'll master it, of course.
4) 2 minutes Live Mixing Course 😛
Big name for something very simple, which you will make instintively after some time.
a) start with the drummer .
Why?
>He has no "volume pot"
>Plays at a relatively constant volume; if louder he'll tire soon; if lower he'll feel bored or repressed, so start by having him play the drum base of your song.
> now you have a "reference level" to which *everything else* must be matched.
No excuses.
b) add the bass player, have him play his part, along with the drummer.
Listen carefully, move around the room.
If the Bass is not heard, raise it until it is, *but* if the drummer disappears or is drowned, lower the bass volume to correct it, until both are even.
Do not repeat not mike the drums so they are heard.
Drums are *LOUD* so if they disappear, the f*ck*ng bass is too loud. Period.
c) now add (if you have it) the backing/rhythm instrument (rhythm guitar/keys/sax/whatever).
Same as before: raise volume until clearly heard, but back if any of the others disappears.
I think now you got the basic idea.
d) this is the hard one: add the lead guitar 😱
It must be heard but previous instruments must not disappear.
If he's too loud (always are) all the sound balancing work you have just done gets lost.
e) *if* you succeed in getting an even balanced sound **without reamplification** inside your room, you have already won the battle.
Adding voice to this good base sound is much easier.
Otherwise ... forget it.
See that I didn't say a word about amps, mixers, mics or speakers, in sum "nothing you can buy at GC" (or any other place) but doing your homework and having discipline.
f) now getting into the hardware side:
as suggested above set the system as monitors (you have no audience there) , *maybe* in 2 corners of the room or however sound reaches those who need it,
position your mike so its back points towards the speakers,
start with a "flat" equalization (at first try to just *listen* to the voice so you keep in tune, later you can embellish it),
rather than raise gain, sing real close to it and try to project your voice forward .
Since you can't avoid having some speaker sound reaching it, you are in a small room, you improve the situation by having it point its least sensitive side (its back) towards the speakers and raise the "useful" sound level, which is maximum within an inch of your lips.
Yes, we have all seen great singers, one foot from their mikes ... but think again.
They are in a huge stadium, with PA speakers 60 feet away , pointing at the audience, with the very best equipment available ... but you can achieve excellent results with your average quality stuff, if you do your homework.
Good luck and please do practice. 🙂
1) take it easy, what you comment is beginner's trouble, in a couple months you'll remember this and smile at yourself.
"Practice makes perfect".
2) the *big* difference with instrument amps is that if, say, your guitar is not heard, you turn it up and that's it, while on PA, turning up brings feedback, so you'll have to find a way around it.
And no, your cabinets do not "produce" hiss, they just "reproduce" what you send them.
And that occasional thump makes me think that you are using too much bass, hitting the mike when you sing, kicking the mic stand, or all of the above together.
3) to begin from the beginning: *first* of all you have to clean your act inside that small rehearsal room.
Meaning: "instrument" sound must be perfect before you even start to worry about *voice* sound.
And it's not a problem you can solve just by throwing watts at it 😱
Think about it a little: you are using a couple hundred watts inside a small room and it's a mess ... yet you listen to a song in a small Hi Fi speaker, driven by 15W , or worse, in a boombox, and you hear *everything* (guitar/bass/drums/voice/keys/brass/whatever).
How come? 😕
The trick lies in "the Mix", perfectly balancing each sound to all the others, so none drowns others, all are evenly heard.
Not easy, takes practice, but you'll master it, of course.
4) 2 minutes Live Mixing Course 😛
Big name for something very simple, which you will make instintively after some time.
a) start with the drummer .
Why?
>He has no "volume pot"
>Plays at a relatively constant volume; if louder he'll tire soon; if lower he'll feel bored or repressed, so start by having him play the drum base of your song.
> now you have a "reference level" to which *everything else* must be matched.
No excuses.
b) add the bass player, have him play his part, along with the drummer.
Listen carefully, move around the room.
If the Bass is not heard, raise it until it is, *but* if the drummer disappears or is drowned, lower the bass volume to correct it, until both are even.
Do not repeat not mike the drums so they are heard.
Drums are *LOUD* so if they disappear, the f*ck*ng bass is too loud. Period.
c) now add (if you have it) the backing/rhythm instrument (rhythm guitar/keys/sax/whatever).
Same as before: raise volume until clearly heard, but back if any of the others disappears.
I think now you got the basic idea.
d) this is the hard one: add the lead guitar 😱
It must be heard but previous instruments must not disappear.
If he's too loud (always are) all the sound balancing work you have just done gets lost.
e) *if* you succeed in getting an even balanced sound **without reamplification** inside your room, you have already won the battle.
Adding voice to this good base sound is much easier.
Otherwise ... forget it.
See that I didn't say a word about amps, mixers, mics or speakers, in sum "nothing you can buy at GC" (or any other place) but doing your homework and having discipline.
f) now getting into the hardware side:
as suggested above set the system as monitors (you have no audience there) , *maybe* in 2 corners of the room or however sound reaches those who need it,
position your mike so its back points towards the speakers,
start with a "flat" equalization (at first try to just *listen* to the voice so you keep in tune, later you can embellish it),
rather than raise gain, sing real close to it and try to project your voice forward .
Since you can't avoid having some speaker sound reaching it, you are in a small room, you improve the situation by having it point its least sensitive side (its back) towards the speakers and raise the "useful" sound level, which is maximum within an inch of your lips.
Yes, we have all seen great singers, one foot from their mikes ... but think again.
They are in a huge stadium, with PA speakers 60 feet away , pointing at the audience, with the very best equipment available ... but you can achieve excellent results with your average quality stuff, if you do your homework.
Good luck and please do practice. 🙂
Speakers don't pop and produce static, they distort and you might get some scraping from cone rub if they have been abused. That sounds more like an issue with dirty tracks or pots on the mixer, which can be relatively easily serviced with some contact cleaner.
As Chris rightly pointed out if this is a rehersal room I would assume that you need to hear yourself sing and the band need to hear you. So one speaker aimed at you and one at the band. For the one facing you as a monitor, lay it on its side pointing up at you and take advantage of the pick up pattern of the mic which has null points at the 60 degree points on either side of the mic, i.e. off to one side behind the mic (not directly behind the mic). This should give you a bit more headroom.
The other thing to play with is the EQ, which can be used to attenuate some of the feedback frequencies or add a little 3kHz for vocal clarity. Avoid using too much Effects in a monitor mix as well.
Hope this helps.
Ian
As Chris rightly pointed out if this is a rehersal room I would assume that you need to hear yourself sing and the band need to hear you. So one speaker aimed at you and one at the band. For the one facing you as a monitor, lay it on its side pointing up at you and take advantage of the pick up pattern of the mic which has null points at the 60 degree points on either side of the mic, i.e. off to one side behind the mic (not directly behind the mic). This should give you a bit more headroom.
The other thing to play with is the EQ, which can be used to attenuate some of the feedback frequencies or add a little 3kHz for vocal clarity. Avoid using too much Effects in a monitor mix as well.
Hope this helps.
Ian
These are good tips for reducing feedback.😎Position your mike so its back points towards the speakers,
start with a "flat" equalization (at first try to just *listen* to the voice so you keep in tune, later you can embellish it),
rather than raise gain, sing real close to it and try to project your voice forward.
Since you can't avoid having some speaker sound reaching it, you are in a small room, you improve the situation by having it point its least sensitive side (its back) towards the speakers and raise the "useful" sound level, which is maximum within an inch of your lips.
The only other microphone handling tip I could add, is do not hold the SM58 around the back of the basket 'Rapper style'
The microphone has directional characteristics but these not work properly if the back of the mic basket is cupped in a hand.
The only other microphone handling tip I could add, is do not hold the SM58 around the back of the basket 'Rapper style'
The microphone has directional characteristics but these not work properly if the back of the mic basket is cupped in a hand.
This is important and often overlooked.
Inexperienced singers tend to "cover" the mic head with a hand at the least hint of feedback .... instant deafening shriek/howl .
The microphone is not magical ... if it's in a certain point in space and soundwaves reach it, it will pick them up, there's no other way.
The useful trick Xoc1 mentioned is that some clever guy added the signal reaching it from behind, out of phase, so the mic is now directional .
But if you choke that back signal .... you're in the oven.
Experienced singers grab the mic as far as possible from the head and on a hint of feedback, almost casually (the audience never notices it) move it a little sideways and away from his face ... and trust the soundman to handle the feedback before it increases.
As of rappers/hip hop/gangsta "singers" ..... better no comment.
The Forum profanity filter will erase 90% of my comment anyway 😉
Use only hyper- cardioid mics.
Don't mic the instruments or drums.
Done.
_-_-
If that fails buy Behringer (or other) Sharc DSP mic preamps that have built in adaptive feedback supression.
Don't mic the instruments or drums.
Done.
_-_-
If that fails buy Behringer (or other) Sharc DSP mic preamps that have built in adaptive feedback supression.
the speakers are power hungry and the amp is weak.
what I would do is reconfigure the speakers into true bi amp.
remove crossover and disconnect 1/4" jack.
wire direct to speak-on: woofer 1+/- and horn 2+/-
purchase cown x3000, DBX 223xs crossover , Dbx 231s EQ
mixer to eq to crossover.
crossover high to crown X1000
crossover low to crown X3000
x1000's 1+/- to 4 wire speaker cable to speak-on 2+/- (speaker cab plug side)
x3000's 1+/- to 4 wire speaker cable to speak-on 1+/- (speaker cab plug side)
set gain nominal. use crossover's input level as the drive in your gain structure.
establish gain structure correctly. then eq out the stuff on the feedback if any.
what I would do is reconfigure the speakers into true bi amp.
remove crossover and disconnect 1/4" jack.
wire direct to speak-on: woofer 1+/- and horn 2+/-
purchase cown x3000, DBX 223xs crossover , Dbx 231s EQ
mixer to eq to crossover.
crossover high to crown X1000
crossover low to crown X3000
x1000's 1+/- to 4 wire speaker cable to speak-on 2+/- (speaker cab plug side)
x3000's 1+/- to 4 wire speaker cable to speak-on 1+/- (speaker cab plug side)
set gain nominal. use crossover's input level as the drive in your gain structure.
establish gain structure correctly. then eq out the stuff on the feedback if any.
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