Tux,
Time arrival and phase are the same thing. Phase is a measurement of distance along a sineusoidal wave in time.
If there are phase anomolies when music is being reproduced it triggers our brain that something isnt quite right. Its about 300million years old that bit of brain.
Time arrival and phase are the same thing. Phase is a measurement of distance along a sineusoidal wave in time.
If there are phase anomolies when music is being reproduced it triggers our brain that something isnt quite right. Its about 300million years old that bit of brain.
Not so. You're right about phase. But that's not what time arrival between the ears is.
Btw. I think phase is important. I just don't agree that it's how we get our sense of direction. I'll google it to make sure I'm not full of crap. I suggest you do the same.
Wikipedia only notes phase difference below 800hz, where xo we're not talking about. And it's still phase between the ears. Phase from a xo is the same for both ears. They're unrelated.
if we're talking about a pure sine, then yes, phase difference plays a role
but:
we're talking about a signal which doesn't look at all like a sinusoidal
the ear doesn't care about its sinusoidal components that much
the outer ear prepares the signal, it preprocesses it
the ear uses a difference in amplitude and phase and time all together
but:
we're talking about a signal which doesn't look at all like a sinusoidal
the ear doesn't care about its sinusoidal components that much
the outer ear prepares the signal, it preprocesses it
the ear uses a difference in amplitude and phase and time all together
i also play several instruments, and i agree that phase although audible, is totally different from the phase or time differential between our ears.
Well. I've read most of the posts in this thread. So what is the attraction?
Has anyone discussed the need for an amplifier with a low dampening factor? My limited experience with the Fostex 16X drivers suggests to me that the OP has an inappropriate amplifier. A Decware SE84C drives my brother's pairof small enclosures to insane levels. Do search for Nelson Pass article on current source amplifiers and also his article/ survey of fullrange drivers to get a feel for some of the magic talked about.
If already suggested please disregard.
Has anyone discussed the need for an amplifier with a low dampening factor? My limited experience with the Fostex 16X drivers suggests to me that the OP has an inappropriate amplifier. A Decware SE84C drives my brother's pairof small enclosures to insane levels. Do search for Nelson Pass article on current source amplifiers and also his article/ survey of fullrange drivers to get a feel for some of the magic talked about.
If already suggested please disregard.
As far as I understand it all that happens when you use an amplifier with a low damping factor is that it basically applies a curve of EQ shaped from the drivers impedance curve?
for stiff drivers with high damping like Lowther are good amplifiers with low damping factor, and for soft drivers good are amps with high damping factor, for example Accuphase amp with damping factor about 1000 makes some fullranger to sound like phone, but Dynaudio loudspeaker will shine
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That's not really a technical reason as to why though.
If the only real effect of using a low damping factor amplifier, is a curve of EQ based off of the drivers impedance, then surely all you need to do is use an amplifier with a high damping factor + filter to give you the required/pleasant tonal balance.
I'm using a RBX 990, I think they sounds great. I'd hate to take a blindfold test with the other speakers - except for the bass, it would be very hard to tell.
Cut some dark wood strips, I think they'll highlight the box when finished. The horn idea is if fading, so short flares.
Cut some dark wood strips, I think they'll highlight the box when finished. The horn idea is if fading, so short flares.
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Hiya Stew,
If you start at post 70 you'll see that someone did indeed mention amplifier damping. I think you know the author. 🙂
I really need to get over there and draw some pictures about flairs. I think I got my portable rig all worked out.
Feeling feisty tonight.
Actually, several amps: Parasound 1200, Rotel 95, a Denon AVR, and a 7 W tube. I did not bother to try my any of my Haflers or Creek. First of all, DF is almost irrelevant. Second, it has nothing to do with cone breakup or that a 4 inch cone just can't move enough air without substantial distortion to pretend to have any bass. If some would like to gift me with a Pass amp, a Nak PA-5 would be nice, I'll gladly provide some feedback.
I don't listen to insane levels. I am also quite aware of what happens when you try and push a driver too far. Does the word "distortion" ring a bell? Or more like, ring the cone like a freeking bell at 7500 Hz?
I am not condemning the full range idea completely. I very much like the idea of a wide rang mid, say 80 to 5K. This driver can't hack it. It needs serious passive network help on both ends and some creative cabinet design to be at all tolerable as a midrange if crossed over low enough. Now, maybe others are not as sensitive to some of these issues and I really hope some of the other drivers do hot have the same issues.
Tvrgeek,
Given your impressions, maybe it's time to try out a FR driver with smoother response, this Fostex isn't going to cut it for you even as a mid-tweet, maybe will work just as a mid-range. And yes, no mistake, full range drivers, specially a 4" driver will not deliver heavy duty bass. Bigger drivers in cleverly designed (and big) cabinets will do better bass, but they are likely to suffer in other areas.
In my experience the Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 is a real nice 4" driver overall, and with its clear and extended top, at least I do not need the feel for a tweeter. For bass augmentation helper woofers integrate nicely.
Question is are you in for some more testing? Again no miracles of course! 😀
Given your impressions, maybe it's time to try out a FR driver with smoother response, this Fostex isn't going to cut it for you even as a mid-tweet, maybe will work just as a mid-range. And yes, no mistake, full range drivers, specially a 4" driver will not deliver heavy duty bass. Bigger drivers in cleverly designed (and big) cabinets will do better bass, but they are likely to suffer in other areas.
In my experience the Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 is a real nice 4" driver overall, and with its clear and extended top, at least I do not need the feel for a tweeter. For bass augmentation helper woofers integrate nicely.
Question is are you in for some more testing? Again no miracles of course! 😀
Along the damping factor line, to do a reasonably quick a/b, insert a 1ohm 10watt power resistor inline on the positive lead.
i think thats how Bob Carver got his Current source(tubey) outputs on his Sunfire amps to sound different.
I sold a sunfire rig, tube preamp and signature amp with Tara Labs RSC cables to a guy with ML Monoliths, very nice sound! The tubey output on that amp made a big difference in the sound, much smoother and more relaxed.
i think thats how Bob Carver got his Current source(tubey) outputs on his Sunfire amps to sound different.
I sold a sunfire rig, tube preamp and signature amp with Tara Labs RSC cables to a guy with ML Monoliths, very nice sound! The tubey output on that amp made a big difference in the sound, much smoother and more relaxed.
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I believe the FE125 is a kind of successor to the FE127. I have a few of these. They were my first full-range dirver and I built Fonken boxes for them. I believe my experience with these drivers is very similar to yours tvrgeek.
Building the boxes was a lot of fun. The drivers clearly needed a break-in period, nothing to do with settling in to local humidity etc. as they were open boxed in my house for awhile before they were installed. It was clear to my wife and I that there was a drastic change in the first half to full hour. The change was for the better - they sounded 'broken' at first. After break-in they sounded clearer and more detailed and 'faster' than any speaker I've ever heard before. Human voices are amazing. It was a revelation.
On what I'd call 'traditional Japanese' music - simple percussion, nothing complex, no orchestra's etc. - they excel. But with what I will call 'modern western' music they sounded harsh and thin with no bass of any merit and female vocals have a way of exciting the cone break-up resonance that simply ruins them. No external circuitry I tried or cone treatments were able to address this and in some cases the additional circuitry had negative results overall; I may still try some further cone treatments on the backside of the cone.
If I had never bought another full-range driver, I would have given up on the genre. I have now a pair of CSS EL-70's. Similar size to the Fostex. But the sound is very different. It's more than capable of handling what I have called 'modern western' music at reasonable SPL. It does have some cone breakup but I am finding it benign except with poor source material (compressed FM pop stations). They don't sound as 'open' as the Fostex, which I ascribe to the differences in treble peakiness.
I would encourage you to try a different full-range driver. I don't think you'll find what you are looking for with this Fostex. If you look at the published FR plots for the 125, they have the same tell-tale nasty peak in the treble just like the FE127's. A different Fostex or a Mark Audio may sound much better for you. For me, it's worth the effort to find the right driver. [my next step is to go to the other end of the spectrum - I'll be trying a 15" full range from Audio Nirvana!]
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I was considering posting something on the CSS EL -70s (they have been around for while). Looks like you'll need to buy them up soon; only a few left.
Creative Sound - Product Details
Creative Sound - Product Details
I think you mean FF125WK - the entire FF..WK line are substantially different from the motor up from the previous FE models fitting the same frame size.
I definitely agree on the EL70, but not to be combative - not so much on your assessment of the new FF series - have you heard any of them? Repeating what I've said elsewhere, I certainly don't detect any nasty peaks in the treble of the new 85 and 125WK ( even untreated ) as might be suggested by the published graphs, but definitely find the new FE126En more fatiguing - in spite of "smoother" looking graphs. It could be a matter of advanced hearing deterioration on my part, particular sensitivity of your own hearing, or the phase of the moon 🙄 - sometimes there is no simple answer.
Good luck with the AN 15s
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