tvrgeek,
Sorry if this sounds like a silly question, you got the drivers in a proper cab of sorts or running them in free air?
Sorry if this sounds like a silly question, you got the drivers in a proper cab of sorts or running them in free air?
In a 11L cab tuned to 67 Hz. and they have hours on them. If one mounted flush in a wall for 2 pi radiation, then the 100 to 500 response might be tenable.
I am ordering the parts to start with a full 6 dB BSC to see if that can bring the mid and mid-bass back in line, or at least as far as a 4" driver will go. 2.8mH and 7 Ohms for my particular cabinets. This if course destroys any thoughts of why I should finish my 6W tube amp concept that seems to be in favor for the full range set. I then have to do something about that breakup, like a crossover and tweeter. It looks like I am going to do something asymmetrical, Chebychef II second order on the LP and first order on the tweeter at about 3500. This gets me down by 15dB at 6500. I can't go without a tweeter. There is actually music up there.
As a full range, they might have promise as rear surrounds if built in flush.
Sounds like you have a plan.
BTW, have you lined the inside of the rear panel with some wool/cotton felt type material? FR driver cones are thin, and if inside back walls are not lined, the backwave can come back and exacerbate the shout (especially for shallow cabs). I usually line the inside back and one side wall fully from top to bottom, inside of top, and for other side wall just some lining around the speaker area.
Not saying that this will do magic 🙂, but might improve the sound in case there were early reflections.
BTW, have you lined the inside of the rear panel with some wool/cotton felt type material? FR driver cones are thin, and if inside back walls are not lined, the backwave can come back and exacerbate the shout (especially for shallow cabs). I usually line the inside back and one side wall fully from top to bottom, inside of top, and for other side wall just some lining around the speaker area.
Not saying that this will do magic 🙂, but might improve the sound in case there were early reflections.
These boxes have three sides with foam and are well stuffed. The stuffing makes quite a difference. Now I switched to ARTA, I can see the difference easier than before. I am quite surprised how dense the stuffing needs to be. I was not aggressive enough in my past projects.
Good observations - I have suffered/learned with lining and stuffing a lot. 🙂
For lining, I have found that some foam and synthetic materials tend to have a reflective nature - they did not help with reducing vocal shout and treble sounded harsh. I have had decent results with Ultratouch receycled denim as a lining material.
For polyfluff I had better/predicatable experience with acoustastuff or dacron types. Once I used another filling material called HCF (probably hollow conjugated fibre) which did not give me good results.
Good feedback. Thanks. Many here are probably not old enough to remember when nothing but English long hair wool would do. The polyfill from WallMart does not do much of anything. I don't know if it is a hint, but it is slippery to the touch. Hard to convert motion to heat when there is too little friction.
I think I will put some various ones on order.
I think I will put some various ones on order.
Again good point - the HCF fibre I mentioned - very slippery and springy. The acosutastuff on the other hand very different.
Once you have the fluff and start the experimenting please share your findings. Also would recommened you try out the Ultratouch denim insulation as lining material.
125's
I think you'll find the longer you have them, the less damping material you'll need. Also a clever box to enhance the bass will help a lot to balance them.
This is the 5th Diy build for this driver; each build seems to get a little better.
Hard to see in photo, 4 degrees on side walls. (Slight angles are not bad to work with).
I think you'll find the longer you have them, the less damping material you'll need. Also a clever box to enhance the bass will help a lot to balance them.
This is the 5th Diy build for this driver; each build seems to get a little better.
Hard to see in photo, 4 degrees on side walls. (Slight angles are not bad to work with).
Attachments
Foam?
I used foam for a long time; bought huge sheets of 3/4" - 1".
Recently I found that I like the way the wool sounds (vs. the foam). I've been using a mix of speaker wool and very inexpensive white stuffing from craft store.
love going to craft stores - little old ladies ask me what I'm building
Also the folks on here like a felt lining, also sold at craft store (cost is not bad). This last build I just used the wood glue and a few stapes here and there to hold the felt, this worked very well.
I've been known to line the walls with lead also (roofing outlets), messy thing to do, the felt is much nicer to work with. I did line the line the small cavity of the double BR with lead, red speaker on right. The bass/tone is nice....it doesn't image well.
I used foam for a long time; bought huge sheets of 3/4" - 1".
Recently I found that I like the way the wool sounds (vs. the foam). I've been using a mix of speaker wool and very inexpensive white stuffing from craft store.
love going to craft stores - little old ladies ask me what I'm building
Also the folks on here like a felt lining, also sold at craft store (cost is not bad). This last build I just used the wood glue and a few stapes here and there to hold the felt, this worked very well.
I've been known to line the walls with lead also (roofing outlets), messy thing to do, the felt is much nicer to work with. I did line the line the small cavity of the double BR with lead, red speaker on right. The bass/tone is nice....it doesn't image well.
Attachments
As far as the attraction, i believe it is Phase Coherence.
Multidriver systems can suffer from poor timing within different frequency bands that trigger our ancient brain to say "Somethings not quite right here".
I believe that to be the source of listening fatigue, your brain just gets fed up with trying to find the danger when its not there and you end up doing laundry instead.
My opinion is somewhat verified by the fact that 90% of people have no trouble with the frequency limited but phase coherent cheap systems from big box retailers and the oem tv speakers.
What do these systems have in common? One driver per channel and no phase error.
try to sell them a higher quality multidriver system and they hear the phase anomoly, which they dont understand, and they refuse to buy. My speakers are good enough.
Multidriver systems can suffer from poor timing within different frequency bands that trigger our ancient brain to say "Somethings not quite right here".
I believe that to be the source of listening fatigue, your brain just gets fed up with trying to find the danger when its not there and you end up doing laundry instead.
My opinion is somewhat verified by the fact that 90% of people have no trouble with the frequency limited but phase coherent cheap systems from big box retailers and the oem tv speakers.
What do these systems have in common? One driver per channel and no phase error.
try to sell them a higher quality multidriver system and they hear the phase anomoly, which they dont understand, and they refuse to buy. My speakers are good enough.
I agree phase coherence is likely part of the reason, but really? This? My tv speakers give me a headache within minutes. They're terrible. I think 90% of people have no trouble with them because they don't care.
TV speakers ? Yecchh...
I have yet to hear a single TV which doesn't have either a massive hollow resonance in the low midrange, typically around 250-300Hz, or sibilant spitty treble, often both.
NOT a good example of full range done well....
Has anyone done a full set of measurements of their TVs speakers ? I might measure ours for a laugh when I get time one day... 😀
It's a CRT, which has better sound than most flat screens, including some actual bass down to about 60Hz, but I still never use the built in sound, even for casual viewing...
Another pet peeve of mine with flat screen TVs is that most put the speakers on the back facing the wall behind it, I HATE that sort of deliberately indirect sound when so much of a TV programme is dialogue, where clarity is paramount...(at least CRTs put them on the front...)
I have yet to hear a single TV which doesn't have either a massive hollow resonance in the low midrange, typically around 250-300Hz, or sibilant spitty treble, often both.
NOT a good example of full range done well....
Has anyone done a full set of measurements of their TVs speakers ? I might measure ours for a laugh when I get time one day... 😀
It's a CRT, which has better sound than most flat screens, including some actual bass down to about 60Hz, but I still never use the built in sound, even for casual viewing...
Another pet peeve of mine with flat screen TVs is that most put the speakers on the back facing the wall behind it, I HATE that sort of deliberately indirect sound when so much of a TV programme is dialogue, where clarity is paramount...(at least CRTs put them on the front...)
Last edited:
+2 on the "quality" of speakers in any of the TV's at any price that I've heard in the last 10yrs
once upon a time Sony made a very decent CRT (Trintrion XBR ) that came with detachable 2-ways that would be considered quite tolerable by today's standards ( were they even APMs?)
FWIW, all of my recent flat screens have had their trashy drivers forward facing
once upon a time Sony made a very decent CRT (Trintrion XBR ) that came with detachable 2-ways that would be considered quite tolerable by today's standards ( were they even APMs?)
FWIW, all of my recent flat screens have had their trashy drivers forward facing
Poorly executed multi-driver systems, yes.
I could not stand to listen to these long enough to break them in. I had to put them in the garage to play for several days. Can't say it helped much. Changed a little yes, but the distortion, breakup and overall response was still, well TV quality.
Maybe some odd-ball ideas like an in-wall flush TL. Who knows. They will have to be crossed over no higher than 3500 second or third order to a tweeter. Even for background music. Guess I am in the other 10%.
Our ears are extreemly attuned to phase differences - the phase difference is the part that makes us able to determine from which direction the sound is coming. Crossovers in the middle of the sensitive "vocal range" gives a particular affect to the reproduced sound and can be picked up immediately.
If you study a speaker with a ruler flat response curve in a normal room then you soon come to realise that the anechoic response curve means zilch, nada, nothing. Moving the enclosure 10" in a particular direction or up / down can make a marked difference. Even Martin King's worksheet will show you these interactions.
When I read a thread like this I wonder how many are affected by the "measuritis" disease and how many actually have played a real musical instrument. But whatever floats your boat - if you don't like it then move on rather than argue on some forum.
If you study a speaker with a ruler flat response curve in a normal room then you soon come to realise that the anechoic response curve means zilch, nada, nothing. Moving the enclosure 10" in a particular direction or up / down can make a marked difference. Even Martin King's worksheet will show you these interactions.
When I read a thread like this I wonder how many are affected by the "measuritis" disease and how many actually have played a real musical instrument. But whatever floats your boat - if you don't like it then move on rather than argue on some forum.
i play the electric. I haven't yet heard a recording that comes even close to what the live instrument sounds like. Also, it doesn't matter if i've been playing for the recording or the other guitarist. Still, what comes out the hifi speakers is only kinda-sorta related to what came out the guitar amp cabinets
Myself im a musician, clarinet, sax. So i know what some instruments are supposed to sound like.
i found that even though my current speakers are deficient in the frequency domain(oem car drivers on an ob of cardboard) i find them enchanting and easy to listen to. My other speakers, the well reviewed DM302 by B&W, sounded better in the frequescy domain but there was something that had me looking for something more life like.
I understand the time domain error theory and it speaks to me as what im looking for, no filter at all.
Going to build some BiB's with a pair of CSS EL70's per cab to get the large sound from a small driver. Cant wait.
i found that even though my current speakers are deficient in the frequency domain(oem car drivers on an ob of cardboard) i find them enchanting and easy to listen to. My other speakers, the well reviewed DM302 by B&W, sounded better in the frequescy domain but there was something that had me looking for something more life like.
I understand the time domain error theory and it speaks to me as what im looking for, no filter at all.
Going to build some BiB's with a pair of CSS EL70's per cab to get the large sound from a small driver. Cant wait.
Do you realize what you're saying flies in the face of current research, afaik.
And we don't get our sense of direction from phase, we get it from time arrival between ears. This is why we are bad at localization vertically, our ears are aligned horizontally.
TVR, something is not right, they are nice small drivers.
Here is a simple test, listen to your best two ways for a good long while, then switch over to the full way....you'll notice/see the difference (they are easier to listen to).
However, before you go there, I have a completed Fonken pair for this driver you can borrow; there is a night and day difference between a simple BR rectangle and P10 designed box.
btw, the Fonkens are extremely well thought out and a joy to build.
Here is a simple test, listen to your best two ways for a good long while, then switch over to the full way....you'll notice/see the difference (they are easier to listen to).
However, before you go there, I have a completed Fonken pair for this driver you can borrow; there is a night and day difference between a simple BR rectangle and P10 designed box.
btw, the Fonkens are extremely well thought out and a joy to build.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.