Hi Milezone,
Reading my PMs, I have been finding the fellow I mixed with your id, he is a countryfellow of you : scholl member who advised me a bout the WG Wavecor tweeter with the 6ND40 from 18THSound that inspired Purifi for the surrounds.... But the country flag, names are tottaly different !
aging is not good, ahah !
Hope you will tell more about your choices. I looked at the 10" driver for guitar loudspeaker cabinet you listed several time, and I see it has only 1 mm Xmax, that's an interrresting choice in the mids but saw you listed it in the 80 hz up as well !
Am I rigth you listen to music at low average spl so need not big headromm despite some of the list are PA drivers ?
Reading my PMs, I have been finding the fellow I mixed with your id, he is a countryfellow of you : scholl member who advised me a bout the WG Wavecor tweeter with the 6ND40 from 18THSound that inspired Purifi for the surrounds.... But the country flag, names are tottaly different !
aging is not good, ahah !
Hope you will tell more about your choices. I looked at the 10" driver for guitar loudspeaker cabinet you listed several time, and I see it has only 1 mm Xmax, that's an interrresting choice in the mids but saw you listed it in the 80 hz up as well !
Am I rigth you listen to music at low average spl so need not big headromm despite some of the list are PA drivers ?
Thats an interesting combination of the 6ND40 and Wavecore tweeter. I'm very fond of the 18Sound driver. I believe both it and Purifi were inspired by Fostex's pleated surrounds on their Sigma series and possibly some unknown driver that predates the Fostex.
Despite the rated xmax the Jensen 10" is solid at loud volume at the specified 80hz crossover. More so than most 8" drivers that I've tested with the exception of a couple B&Cs.
Despite the rated xmax the Jensen 10" is solid at loud volume at the specified 80hz crossover. More so than most 8" drivers that I've tested with the exception of a couple B&Cs.
Take a look : https://www.lean-business.co.uk/esh...-p-2227.html?zenid=js57l5dh5crfnh607rp98fsem1
custom 10nmb with copper sleeve, and 2" coil, Kurt muller soft parts, motor from 18s.
1. Production of paper cones
sieve inside or sieve outside
pressed for improvement of fidelity
air dryed to increase internal damping
sizes up to 10 inches are produced in Germany, sizes larger than 10 inches are produced in UK
2. Materials of paper cones
production in UK: hardest Blue Sig, standard material and soft material Mu and K2 or very hard special material SigX
production in Germany: hard, black ST material, standard material and soft, damping materials V, DU, DS and special materials MA (Micra), NU
for increase of strength spacing material is used (aramid fibre, carbon fibre, glass fibre, ...)
Seems natural it came out of the UK department of dr.KM.
The cones look / seem identical to the 12P80NDV2.0 (first version of the V2, not currently sold) i had actually.
Also it retains the ISV in/outside wound VC, and alu. Demodulation ring, good venting and copper sleeve.
But with a 2" coil, and a lighter weight cone/shorter coil of really good quality.
I hope you will not just use your 4th order filters as crossover without taking the response of your bare drivers into consideration. This would either ask for drivers with an unnecessarily wide bandwitdh or end up in a suboptimal end result. Generally speaking it would have nothing to do with "proper design".
Regards
Charles
Mile zone. Have you ever evaluated the dukane 5a540 and the evdh1a what are your thoughts on these your honest opinion are they trash or a good find because I got both and never really had time to play and hear them but curious if you did
I've experienced neither so cannot say whether they're trash or not. I would think the TAD TD2001 out performs the Dukane and contemporary drivers outperform the EV and both. That said I've been very curious about that particular EV and the Neo version and have read praise about that driver. EV is like JBL in that their top of the line stuff is as good as any I presume. It will be difficult and frustrating for most to find contemporary drivers of equal quality to the top performing EV and JBL units just through trial and error though I believe there are a few that are as good or better. The places to look would be Radian, and couple Beyma drivers, and then maybe Faital, LaVoce, PRV, BMS, and maybe Kartesian. That said I believe compression drivers are best suited for large scale sound reproduction and overkill and less performative than certain properly implemented direct radiating designs at near to midfield listening distances.
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Mile zone, thanks for the quick reply but the dukane 5a540 is a copy of the coral m100 which from alot reviews was favored over the tad 2001 and a clone of the jbl2410 but with a beefier alnico magnet each weight around 10 lbs each i heard the tad 2001 against the fiatal pro hf10ak which sounds about the same but I like the Beyma CD171 FE/PK compression driver sounds more natural but thanks again for your response i appreciate it i just wanted to know your opinion on the dukane and ev because I follow you and respect your judgment
I had a look at your Sublime Acoustic XO. That could be a factor that brings out the best in some drivers, but not others.
In some cases, apart from the QC and burnt coil issues, the 'uglies' may simply prefer passive XOs. Once you start "cutting off" the high frequencies, an active filter merely attenuates the default sound they always make when plugged directly into the amplifier. Meanwhile, a well designed passive filter alters the quality of the sound as it's being attenuated, including HD and IMD, by controlling the source impedance in the roll-off region.
@milezone
Well it just seemed like common sense to me. You listed some bass and mid-range speakers as well as tweeters, so presumably the bass and mids get a low-pass somewhere, so as to hand over the higher frequencies to other drivers. But you also listed some full-range drivers... So, I don't know, did you simply listen to them all without filtering first, and then applied active filters on a case by case basis, mixing and matching different drivers?
Well it just seemed like common sense to me. You listed some bass and mid-range speakers as well as tweeters, so presumably the bass and mids get a low-pass somewhere, so as to hand over the higher frequencies to other drivers. But you also listed some full-range drivers... So, I don't know, did you simply listen to them all without filtering first, and then applied active filters on a case by case basis, mixing and matching different drivers?
It is interesting (sad...) to see EV now using B&C drivers in their large scale designs:
25 years after it closed, I still miss EV's Buchanan, Michigan factory.
Don't miss the toxins it released...
Art
Rewording my prior post... your inquiry is very valid. I find that certain 8" full range drivers, operating full range with a 40hz high pass filter applied are as performative as anything I've tested.
many nostalgic memories of KM juju 😲
Some of the best selling speakers in Europe (and probably the World) have Kurt Mueller cones, including 2 of mine. One from KM, UK and one from KM, Germany. There was rivalry between the UK & German branches for our business 😊
I've used the KM, UK unit (which was 4" piston diameter BTW) as a demo of how a good sounding paper cone should behave on breakup. This is different from how a good sounding plastic cone behaves. We were the first to use a SCanned Laser interferometry Plot to see this.
Back to this Millenium ...
milezone, I won't ask how you rate Supa, Good, Garbage etc as there is too much subjectivity for this.
But how do you measure and rate robustness? This should be much less controversial and amenable to a scientific investigation. Do you actually destroy them? Surely only a commercial outfit can afford such tests.
I used to work for Celestion and the guitar speaker Dept. was on the same floor as the HiFi speaker mob. The famous G12s (of which there are a zillion versions) were designed to for a particular sound and distortion profile ... often to suit a particular guitar amp maker customer.
The designers would be shocked that you wanted to use them for HiFi 😲
As long as the 'grunge' is avoided by keeping cone excursion below ±1mm or whatever the limit is for a guitar speaker, it could a near-perfect mid-range, AFAICT.
The hard part is then not skimping on a quality amplifier.
I'm not sure if there are ready projects out there, whether in the Pass / First Watt line-up or elsewhere, which would be a perfect fit for guitar speakers as mids specifically, but one idea that comes to mind:
Start with the typical IRFP(9)240 OR lateral Exicon design. For designers not comfortable with messing around with current feedback and potentially getting stuck with a circuit that oscillates, instead: see what happens when you put 1-5mH in series with the usual 8 ohm fake speaker load in a simulator. Then, see if you can do 2 things: 1, reduce the heavy >1~2A idle current, just so it doesn't come out of class-A. 2, increase the rail voltages for dynamic peaks.
This may all seem backwards, but look what happens "normally": your off-the-shelf class A amplifier idles with too much current that assumes it's getting an 8 or 4 ohm load, which it's not. If you decide to run the speaker above say, 500Hz, with a couple mH coil, the actual minimum load is likely ~15 ohm or higher. (One thing to watch out for is that peak current is phase-shifted relative to peak voltage, but designs rated for 8 or 4 ohms already run 2-4 times hotter with that factored in). So you can use smaller FETs with much less gate capacitance, and run them at higher voltages for less distortion and more overhead before clipping.
All that optimization is only really possible after saying: hey, I'm using XYZ speaker above abc Hz. What can I do to get the best out of it?
The hard part is then not skimping on a quality amplifier.
I'm not sure if there are ready projects out there, whether in the Pass / First Watt line-up or elsewhere, which would be a perfect fit for guitar speakers as mids specifically, but one idea that comes to mind:
Start with the typical IRFP(9)240 OR lateral Exicon design. For designers not comfortable with messing around with current feedback and potentially getting stuck with a circuit that oscillates, instead: see what happens when you put 1-5mH in series with the usual 8 ohm fake speaker load in a simulator. Then, see if you can do 2 things: 1, reduce the heavy >1~2A idle current, just so it doesn't come out of class-A. 2, increase the rail voltages for dynamic peaks.
This may all seem backwards, but look what happens "normally": your off-the-shelf class A amplifier idles with too much current that assumes it's getting an 8 or 4 ohm load, which it's not. If you decide to run the speaker above say, 500Hz, with a couple mH coil, the actual minimum load is likely ~15 ohm or higher. (One thing to watch out for is that peak current is phase-shifted relative to peak voltage, but designs rated for 8 or 4 ohms already run 2-4 times hotter with that factored in). So you can use smaller FETs with much less gate capacitance, and run them at higher voltages for less distortion and more overhead before clipping.
All that optimization is only really possible after saying: hey, I'm using XYZ speaker above abc Hz. What can I do to get the best out of it?
B&C 15NW76 it is not bass driver is for two way satellite needs hi power amp 600-800 rms to come alive the the hi BL motor and hi passed between 700-1000 hz work together with 2 inch driver throat.Is one excellent smooth sounding speaker.
To clarify what you're suggesting, a 15NW76 crossed at say 40hz... to a subwoofer, and operating bandpass to 700-1000hz, crossed to 2" compression driver...
For the highish output application you mention, that would be a moderately decent choice as you likely are aware.... Vocals on the high MMS cone regardless of motor strength will sound substantially muffled compared with something lighter. A 10" woofer like the 18Sound 10NMBA520 would be a far better choice. Furthermore at a crossover frequency of 800hz or more, I would opt for certain 3" vc compression drivers, not a 2" presumably 4" vc cd. The smaller diameter and lighter diaphragm will again be more performative in the treble region compared with anything larger and is adequate output wise at the specified crossover frequency and up.
For the highish output application you mention, that would be a moderately decent choice as you likely are aware.... Vocals on the high MMS cone regardless of motor strength will sound substantially muffled compared with something lighter. A 10" woofer like the 18Sound 10NMBA520 would be a far better choice. Furthermore at a crossover frequency of 800hz or more, I would opt for certain 3" vc compression drivers, not a 2" presumably 4" vc cd. The smaller diameter and lighter diaphragm will again be more performative in the treble region compared with anything larger and is adequate output wise at the specified crossover frequency and up.
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