longblock454 said:
Actually, you would want two units, one in each corner to get a more even soundfield. However, 500 watts continously into two Maelstroms would probably be more of bonebreaking than jaw dropping (unless the room is really huge.) However, IMHO physical discomfort is not really "impressive" but the headroom and low distortion afforded by such a system could be.
The postings on infinite baffles seem a bit odd. A sealed box achieves the same thing but with other driver parameters, relying on the relatively linear suspension from the air in the box instead of the relatively non-linear suspension of the spider/surround. The box also provide an additional means to lower the Qts by adding damping material to the box. The only reasons I can think of to use true IB would to take advantage of low-price drivers for e.g. cars with a Qt of approximately .7 or more or to be decidedly different, both of which are valid reasons (if you have the room to spare).
However, for sound pressure alone, a ported design can multiply the acoustic output available from a closed box design, given that the driver is powerful enough to drive the port.
Sincerely,
Kranis
Well I’m just about to put install my IB woofers. Here’s my thinking on why it was the best solution for me other than the reason Kranis mentions.
These are the drivers I bought. http://www.aespeakers.com/store.php
They were on sale four woofers for $400!
According to WinISD I can expect in an IB set up.
A Q of just under 0.5
Max spl of 124db @ 32hz and 115db@ 20hz with no room gain.
With a 50hz low pass, an f3 of 19hz and f6 of 14hz with no eq!
100 db @ 20hz with 12 watts of power and 2mm of cone excursion (now that’s got to be low distortion) again with no room gain.
Group delay of under 8ms at 20hz.
So for $400 of drivers and a very simple box (but a hole in my ceiling) I should get pretty darn good bass response by any definition and no visible speaker box in my room.
It’s cheap, efficient, easy to build, almost invisible, low distortion with outrageous output and with a Q and group delay that, in my mind, is almost perfect.
To me these are great advantages besides being decidedly different. Of course this is only theory right now but next week I’ll post my “real” results. I have a hard time believing that you can do much better for cheaper (or anywhere near). I’ll be running this with an old Bryston 3b that I bought for ($300 can), a behringer digital parametric eq ($110) and a paradigm x-30 xover for low pass only ($100). Fun, fun, fun. I hope to drop a few jaws.
Just MHO.
These are the drivers I bought. http://www.aespeakers.com/store.php
They were on sale four woofers for $400!
According to WinISD I can expect in an IB set up.
A Q of just under 0.5
Max spl of 124db @ 32hz and 115db@ 20hz with no room gain.
With a 50hz low pass, an f3 of 19hz and f6 of 14hz with no eq!
100 db @ 20hz with 12 watts of power and 2mm of cone excursion (now that’s got to be low distortion) again with no room gain.
Group delay of under 8ms at 20hz.
So for $400 of drivers and a very simple box (but a hole in my ceiling) I should get pretty darn good bass response by any definition and no visible speaker box in my room.
It’s cheap, efficient, easy to build, almost invisible, low distortion with outrageous output and with a Q and group delay that, in my mind, is almost perfect.
To me these are great advantages besides being decidedly different. Of course this is only theory right now but next week I’ll post my “real” results. I have a hard time believing that you can do much better for cheaper (or anywhere near). I’ll be running this with an old Bryston 3b that I bought for ($300 can), a behringer digital parametric eq ($110) and a paradigm x-30 xover for low pass only ($100). Fun, fun, fun. I hope to drop a few jaws.
Just MHO.
Re: Re: What would be considered Jaw droping?
If placement isn't ideal, IB may not offer the best results. If you an put it in a good spot (or spots) there is no comparison to a small-box sealed alignment.
FWIW, I have a sealed Tumult sitting at home right now, in addition to my IB. The Tumult will go to my dad when it's completely finished (he can't put holes in the house since it's not his... work provided). But for now, I can compare... Haven't done any side by side comparisons but I will. Nothing I have heard to date compares to IB bass though (except perhaps dipole).
You need more EQ to bring up the bottom end on a small-box sealed too.
C
If placement isn't ideal, IB may not offer the best results. If you an put it in a good spot (or spots) there is no comparison to a small-box sealed alignment.
FWIW, I have a sealed Tumult sitting at home right now, in addition to my IB. The Tumult will go to my dad when it's completely finished (he can't put holes in the house since it's not his... work provided). But for now, I can compare... Haven't done any side by side comparisons but I will. Nothing I have heard to date compares to IB bass though (except perhaps dipole).
You need more EQ to bring up the bottom end on a small-box sealed too.
C
Cjd... Atlas a match for Tumult? Are you kidding??? The only sub Ascendant has that would match tumult or beat it would be the avalanche 18. Atlas has a measly 18mm one way Xmax, its a dead giveaway. Unless your talking about some lousy frequency like 80hz then get out. They should call that midbass, true bass performance goes down to at least the teens.
Still not sure IB isn't a bit of a digression from "jaw dropping here," which implies output rather than fidelity I would think. IB has a lot of great advantages and with a room I owned and a suitable budget, it would be on my shortlist (a toss up between horns and IB). But it doesn't really have anything IMO that make it jaw dropping compared to other alignments. Better transient response yes. The ability to hide a lot of VD in a room yes. But output? Not unless you get lots of power and drivers.
I had a look at the Ascendant audio drivers. While you can't expect a single Atlas 15 to compete with Tumult, they do have some impressive drivers, and it's not an apples to apples comparison as Tumult is FAR more expensive. You could use two of the Atlas 15 for less and get more ouput. Further, you could push pull mount them for even lower distortion. The tumult is so expensive that it's hard for anyone to afford more than one of them.
Ultra high excursion drivers take a lot of power to drive them. I've found with my AV12s I will probably only use about 15-18mm of the excursion anyway, it's just not worth spending more money on more power. Hence you might in fact get more bang for buck with a pair of lower excursion 15" drivers running off a bang for buck amp like my behringer. I use this for my two AV12 drivers and I'm yet to find out what they can do ... its not for the faint of heart. The only way would be to drown out the mains.
Their 18" driver is going for less than the Tumult. In an absolute sense, it has more VD, however, being an 18" driver and not needing so much excursion, you probably don't need so much power to use the output.
Personally I prefer having 23mm of excursion and only using 15mm of it at most rather than having 15mm and using it all. Gives you peace of mind. If I wanted more output, I'd then move to more drivers and amps rather than more power and excursion. But that's in the future. Right now my subs are idling when they put out 105 db at my listening position, and my mains struggle to keep up. While simulations say I can get 118 db from my subs, I haven't tested or measured yet. I can't really use it while keeping the bass in some proportion to the rest of the signal.
I had a look at the Ascendant audio drivers. While you can't expect a single Atlas 15 to compete with Tumult, they do have some impressive drivers, and it's not an apples to apples comparison as Tumult is FAR more expensive. You could use two of the Atlas 15 for less and get more ouput. Further, you could push pull mount them for even lower distortion. The tumult is so expensive that it's hard for anyone to afford more than one of them.
Ultra high excursion drivers take a lot of power to drive them. I've found with my AV12s I will probably only use about 15-18mm of the excursion anyway, it's just not worth spending more money on more power. Hence you might in fact get more bang for buck with a pair of lower excursion 15" drivers running off a bang for buck amp like my behringer. I use this for my two AV12 drivers and I'm yet to find out what they can do ... its not for the faint of heart. The only way would be to drown out the mains.
Their 18" driver is going for less than the Tumult. In an absolute sense, it has more VD, however, being an 18" driver and not needing so much excursion, you probably don't need so much power to use the output.
Personally I prefer having 23mm of excursion and only using 15mm of it at most rather than having 15mm and using it all. Gives you peace of mind. If I wanted more output, I'd then move to more drivers and amps rather than more power and excursion. But that's in the future. Right now my subs are idling when they put out 105 db at my listening position, and my mains struggle to keep up. While simulations say I can get 118 db from my subs, I haven't tested or measured yet. I can't really use it while keeping the bass in some proportion to the rest of the signal.
while I do agree IB is not the absolute best in quantity-jaw dropping to me also involves quality-I mean who wants to listen to 120dB of one note bass?...never mind they drive up and down the street in front of my house all the time
and personally I have a small room so there's no better alternative to an IB because I don't have the room for 4 15" horn loaded,ported ,or even sealed boxes.
and personally I have a small room so there's no better alternative to an IB because I don't have the room for 4 15" horn loaded,ported ,or even sealed boxes.
If I owned the room I use, then IB would be very tempting as there isn't really a good place to put my subs that I'm happy with.
Although I'd have to give up the idea of having visible, sculptural sexy sports car looking subs!
Getting back to the question of what is jaw dropping ... I'd say anything that can meet THX specs is at the "jaw dropping threshold." A peak output of 105 db is actually VERY loud. If you can get that output at your listening position down to 25 Hz with a fair amount of headroom, then I'd say you are there. Beyond that, there is spare headroom and excess (ahhh we love that don't we?) 😀
Now keep in mind to do this right you need more than you think. If you use eq to deal with some room modes then it might be a lot harder! Hence, if your simulations tell you that you can get 105 db at your listening position with the amp you have in mind, you might not actually get it - room modes could stuff it up.
Hmmm I just quickly modelled the Ascendant 18" in WinISD in a vented box and it's seems to want a crazy big box. ie 500L!!! To my surprise, the Tumult looks a lot better in sims - it's max spl is higher 122 db @ 25 vs 119 for the larger driver in a box more than twice the size. The tumult doesn't use all of its excursion with its max power applied - 1600 watts. If I used the Behringer EP2500 you would have 2.4 kw available and that still would only use ~20mm of excursion, while the 18" needs about 1000w to reach xmax.
The Tumult looks like it has a better set of parameters for a vented alignment ... but lets look at IB ...
I'll use a very large sealed box for each with say 10,000L in WinISD. Amp: Europower 2500 with 2 x 650w 4 ohms or 2.4kw 4 ohms mono bridged. Lets feed two of either sub with 650w. Suddenly the Ascendant looks better. The tumult hits 113 db @ 25 Hz, but 118 for the 18". If you give each Tumult the max power it can handle thermally (1600w) then you can match output to 24 Hz but that needs a more powerful amp.
For IB use the Ascendant looks better, although for use in an actual box, it's not only huge but needs a crazy big box, Tumult is more attractive for that purpose.
Although I'd have to give up the idea of having visible, sculptural sexy sports car looking subs!
Getting back to the question of what is jaw dropping ... I'd say anything that can meet THX specs is at the "jaw dropping threshold." A peak output of 105 db is actually VERY loud. If you can get that output at your listening position down to 25 Hz with a fair amount of headroom, then I'd say you are there. Beyond that, there is spare headroom and excess (ahhh we love that don't we?) 😀
Now keep in mind to do this right you need more than you think. If you use eq to deal with some room modes then it might be a lot harder! Hence, if your simulations tell you that you can get 105 db at your listening position with the amp you have in mind, you might not actually get it - room modes could stuff it up.
Hmmm I just quickly modelled the Ascendant 18" in WinISD in a vented box and it's seems to want a crazy big box. ie 500L!!! To my surprise, the Tumult looks a lot better in sims - it's max spl is higher 122 db @ 25 vs 119 for the larger driver in a box more than twice the size. The tumult doesn't use all of its excursion with its max power applied - 1600 watts. If I used the Behringer EP2500 you would have 2.4 kw available and that still would only use ~20mm of excursion, while the 18" needs about 1000w to reach xmax.
The Tumult looks like it has a better set of parameters for a vented alignment ... but lets look at IB ...
I'll use a very large sealed box for each with say 10,000L in WinISD. Amp: Europower 2500 with 2 x 650w 4 ohms or 2.4kw 4 ohms mono bridged. Lets feed two of either sub with 650w. Suddenly the Ascendant looks better. The tumult hits 113 db @ 25 Hz, but 118 for the 18". If you give each Tumult the max power it can handle thermally (1600w) then you can match output to 24 Hz but that needs a more powerful amp.
For IB use the Ascendant looks better, although for use in an actual box, it's not only huge but needs a crazy big box, Tumult is more attractive for that purpose.
We have a guy on a Swedish forum building a nice little sub with 8 JBL SUB1500s. Should be OK for a nice output on the 20 Hz region I think.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
TO URSV
🙂 HELLO
mind if you could also share the plans for those sub boxes on the photos?
hienrich
🙂 HELLO
mind if you could also share the plans for those sub boxes on the photos?
hienrich
Hi robertwb70
What *frequency range (Hz) output +/- 5 dB - **up to what Hz - would you get from an appropriately sized attic/ etc,with a typical good bass driver, eg with a Peerless XLS 12 inch?
And do you know how is the interaction with room modes, compared to dipole/ horn/ sealed bass?
Cheers
Richard
What *frequency range (Hz) output +/- 5 dB - **up to what Hz - would you get from an appropriately sized attic/ etc,with a typical good bass driver, eg with a Peerless XLS 12 inch?
And do you know how is the interaction with room modes, compared to dipole/ horn/ sealed bass?
Cheers
Richard
Hi Richard,
HAPPY NEW YEAR :d
How was the MAC diy night? I'm sorry I missed it 🙁
That question is impossible to answer, at least with the kind of answer you are looking for. IB subs are monopole so their anechoic response is dominated by the room as much as anything except a dipole. The closest thing to IB is a very large sealed box or some TLs. The output is no more than a sealed box as the rear wave is not used, but the transient response is better - in fact the best possible from the driver as it is only impacted by the driver's systension and motor system. All alignments alter the transient response of a driver, bass reflex in particular due to the impact of the vent tuning.
IBs can be made to sound like a good dipole with eq and clever placement. The best way to find suitable placement for IB subs is to make small prototype sealed boxes and move around a mic and measure. The mic should be the same distance from the ceiling as your ear is from the floor in your listening position for which you intend to design. This is assuming you want to put IB subs in the ceiling.
If you have a lot of drivers and a suitable budget, one way to go is a dipole/IB hybrid. Use dipoles down to 40 or 50 Hz - say 4 drivers, then use 4 as an IB to extend the low end to 20 Hz. The dipoles should need less eq in the mid to upper bass and sound better due to less interaction with the room. The IBs will need much less eq to get down low, they will have the same transient response and should integrate well if done right.
I would expect that if this is done right, you would get very high end bass, very accurate, very articulate, jaw dropping in realism.
I would say if you were going to do this kind of thing, something like Ultracurve DEQ (which I now have) would be worth considering...
If you want to find out the max SPL, you can model it in WinISD - just use a sealed box with a very large volume like 1000L. Check cone excursion. There's a good chance that the output you get at 30 Hz can actually extend down to 20 Hz or close with room gain.
HAPPY NEW YEAR :d
How was the MAC diy night? I'm sorry I missed it 🙁
That question is impossible to answer, at least with the kind of answer you are looking for. IB subs are monopole so their anechoic response is dominated by the room as much as anything except a dipole. The closest thing to IB is a very large sealed box or some TLs. The output is no more than a sealed box as the rear wave is not used, but the transient response is better - in fact the best possible from the driver as it is only impacted by the driver's systension and motor system. All alignments alter the transient response of a driver, bass reflex in particular due to the impact of the vent tuning.
IBs can be made to sound like a good dipole with eq and clever placement. The best way to find suitable placement for IB subs is to make small prototype sealed boxes and move around a mic and measure. The mic should be the same distance from the ceiling as your ear is from the floor in your listening position for which you intend to design. This is assuming you want to put IB subs in the ceiling.
If you have a lot of drivers and a suitable budget, one way to go is a dipole/IB hybrid. Use dipoles down to 40 or 50 Hz - say 4 drivers, then use 4 as an IB to extend the low end to 20 Hz. The dipoles should need less eq in the mid to upper bass and sound better due to less interaction with the room. The IBs will need much less eq to get down low, they will have the same transient response and should integrate well if done right.
I would expect that if this is done right, you would get very high end bass, very accurate, very articulate, jaw dropping in realism.
I would say if you were going to do this kind of thing, something like Ultracurve DEQ (which I now have) would be worth considering...
If you want to find out the max SPL, you can model it in WinISD - just use a sealed box with a very large volume like 1000L. Check cone excursion. There's a good chance that the output you get at 30 Hz can actually extend down to 20 Hz or close with room gain.
"the cult" is the best IB site and while it won't answer all those questions(too many variables) it does have a lot of examples/experiences-there's a link on page 1 of this thread
and I wouldn't bother with 12" woofers-unless you just can't fit something bigger
and I wouldn't bother with 12" woofers-unless you just can't fit something bigger
The key advantages of IB are:
1. No big box in the room.
2. No boxy effects on the operation of the driver.
3. Simplicity of the build.
4. Manifold alignments allow the cancellation of mechanical
vibrations of the woofers operation.
5. Push/pull alignment is possible without having the magnet
side of the basket visible, which decreases distortion.
To me, in addition to the pure sound, 4 & 5 are key advantages when you are talking about having "jaw dropping" output. The vibration resulting from the mechanical operation of large woofers is significant. At high output levels distortion leads to more room rattles even if the distortion itself is inaudible.
1. No big box in the room.
2. No boxy effects on the operation of the driver.
3. Simplicity of the build.
4. Manifold alignments allow the cancellation of mechanical
vibrations of the woofers operation.
5. Push/pull alignment is possible without having the magnet
side of the basket visible, which decreases distortion.
To me, in addition to the pure sound, 4 & 5 are key advantages when you are talking about having "jaw dropping" output. The vibration resulting from the mechanical operation of large woofers is significant. At high output levels distortion leads to more room rattles even if the distortion itself is inaudible.
I was comparing tumult to atlas driver-driver, no bang for your buck type stuff. I'm running 6cubic feet tuned to 10hz, I'd call it impressive with as little as 200watts. Of course it can take alot more than that!
One thing that definately is NOT jaw dropping = room modes BLAH!!!!
I put both my subs in the corner and re-calibrated with ultacurve and had a strange sensation at listening position! ... I could feel the bass more than I could hear it ... not in a good way but kind of like when you wire 2 subs wrongly so they cancel each other - it doesn't feel right.
Well there are actually 3 things that can do this:
- inverted polarity on one of 2 sources
- room modes arrrrggggghhhh
- too much compression of power heavy bass peaks (I've tried it and it sounds similar)
It's getting annoying, got to find a better position for them ... as they are working harder than they should 🙁
I put both my subs in the corner and re-calibrated with ultacurve and had a strange sensation at listening position! ... I could feel the bass more than I could hear it ... not in a good way but kind of like when you wire 2 subs wrongly so they cancel each other - it doesn't feel right.
Well there are actually 3 things that can do this:
- inverted polarity on one of 2 sources
- room modes arrrrggggghhhh
- too much compression of power heavy bass peaks (I've tried it and it sounds similar)
It's getting annoying, got to find a better position for them ... as they are working harder than they should 🙁
longblock454 said:
To me. Jaw Dropping is 8 RE XXX 15's in the bed of a truck ported into the cab. 155dB of undistorted sound. There is some video of this on Realmofexcursion.com. I dont know all of the specs on this truck but it is simply amazing. The video shows the doors of the truck literaly being blown out then sucked in as the guy inside thetruck does a few burps at different frequincies. It shows a girl sitting in the passenger seat with the windo down and her hair flying all over the place. much like yo usee at any SPL competition. only this is an 'everyday' driver. That a little too insane? Well any set up with a Brahma 15 is amazing. But as far as what sounds good. well to me it isnjt about the sound its about the sence. 15Hz@135dB. Not the easyest to reproduce but the feling your body gets from it. well its hard to explain. its almost like being extremely drunk. everything you see if a blurr. its like trying to look out the rear view mirror of any car with a decent system.
Does it not matter what you're listening to ?
My tempests are good with music, but it's only when you put a decent dvd on that you hear what they can do. Finding Nemo anyone ?
With music they just coast along....
Cheers,
oh and happy new year everyone😀
Rob
EDIT: The original post asked what was jaw dropping to the average person. I'd say that most 'normal😉 ' peoples jaws would drop at a single 12 in a normal sized room. Compared to the midi systems most people seem to own that is..
My tempests are good with music, but it's only when you put a decent dvd on that you hear what they can do. Finding Nemo anyone ?
With music they just coast along....
Cheers,
oh and happy new year everyone😀
Rob
EDIT: The original post asked what was jaw dropping to the average person. I'd say that most 'normal😉 ' peoples jaws would drop at a single 12 in a normal sized room. Compared to the midi systems most people seem to own that is..
Re: Re: What would be considered Jaw droping?
That blur is from lack of oxygen because your lungs have collapsed. There will be further blurs as you are reviewing your ER charges.
CBFryman said:
That blur is from lack of oxygen because your lungs have collapsed. There will be further blurs as you are reviewing your ER charges.
your lungs wouldnt colapse from 135dB at any frequincy....especially one as low as 15Hz....it causes excrusiating pain tin the ears and you dont know why because you really cant "hear" it persay. I experenced it at some show. a guy had a wall of 18" drivers each ported and tuned to 12Hz in a nastro van. im not sure what woofers they where but when they cranked ther ewas a good 3-4" at least of excursion. 9 of them if i remember correctly. it wasnt even an SPL vehicle. just something someone with too much money and time decided to do. they had to have a special front windsheild mounting device and the windsheild moved nearly 1" while he was playing it.
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