In terms of output, what is considered above average, to the average person that is?
Would a Maelstrom in a 22" sealed cube with a 1000 watt PE subwoofer amp do the trick? This could be built for about $800 it seems.
Or would it take a Tumult in an Adire reference design to do the trick?
Would a Maelstrom in a 22" sealed cube with a 1000 watt PE subwoofer amp do the trick? This could be built for about $800 it seems.
Or would it take a Tumult in an Adire reference design to do the trick?
IMO an undistorted output of 120dB at 20Hz
and it can be done cheaply and easily-you can have world class quantity and quality-but you have to be willing to cut a hole in your house somewhere...
I don't know why IB subwoofers are rarely mentioned at this forum-everybody seems to be obsessed with smaller,more complex and lower performance designs -maybe they're just doing it for fun and aren't as worried about the outcome but I prefer to get the most for my money that I can
and it can be done cheaply and easily-you can have world class quantity and quality-but you have to be willing to cut a hole in your house somewhere...
I don't know why IB subwoofers are rarely mentioned at this forum-everybody seems to be obsessed with smaller,more complex and lower performance designs -maybe they're just doing it for fun and aren't as worried about the outcome but I prefer to get the most for my money that I can
Here's a brief overhead view of an installation I did in the mid 70's.
This is an infinite baffle because the unusual wall keeps the rear wave of the woofers from the listening room.
The woofers are mounted in the wall just behind the mid/hf units (blue boxes). There was one 12" woofer per side. X represents the listener.
Although originally not used in this installation because we didn't know much about standing waves at the time, "trap" represents tightly compressed fiberglass which will get rid of the axial standing waves along the length of the room.
Probably not applicable to your situation but this gives you the general idea of an infinite baffle installation. When the volume behind the woofers is many times Vas, you have an infinite baffle. The garage could be replaced by an attic, crawlspace or large closet.
4 12" woofers per side would be jaw dropping. Of course it needs to be bi-amped. You need to select woofers with a Qt between .5 and .7
This is an infinite baffle because the unusual wall keeps the rear wave of the woofers from the listening room.
The woofers are mounted in the wall just behind the mid/hf units (blue boxes). There was one 12" woofer per side. X represents the listener.
Although originally not used in this installation because we didn't know much about standing waves at the time, "trap" represents tightly compressed fiberglass which will get rid of the axial standing waves along the length of the room.
Probably not applicable to your situation but this gives you the general idea of an infinite baffle installation. When the volume behind the woofers is many times Vas, you have an infinite baffle. The garage could be replaced by an attic, crawlspace or large closet.
4 12" woofers per side would be jaw dropping. Of course it needs to be bi-amped. You need to select woofers with a Qt between .5 and .7
Attachments
Cult of the Infinately Baffled
This Site will give you a good grounding on IB subwoffers.
Very cool.
Doug
This Site will give you a good grounding on IB subwoffers.
Very cool.
Doug
From the messages on the "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled" is seems this is setup is superior to conventional Subs if you have the necessary space, ie basement or suitable attic?
Considering I am looking to WOW my friends and "feel" movies like Terminator, is an IB arrangement practical compared to a Maelstrom setup for around $1000? My house has a suitable basement and attic and I am not afraid to cut holes in either! My living room is approximately 20x16.
Thanks for the links and quality information.
Considering I am looking to WOW my friends and "feel" movies like Terminator, is an IB arrangement practical compared to a Maelstrom setup for around $1000? My house has a suitable basement and attic and I am not afraid to cut holes in either! My living room is approximately 20x16.
Thanks for the links and quality information.
If you want to use the Maelstrom, why a 22" cube? Use it in a IB setup or a very huge vented box since you have the space for it.
Probably because to get similar SPLs at very low frequencies, you need to spend a lot more on woofers and generally need to EQ sub for extension. This adds complexity and cost to what is probably the simplest DIY speaker to make (and as such, the one that likely attracts the most newbies who would be turned off by the added cost/complexity).
morbo said:
I don't know where you heard all this but it was certainly exagerated-I ran mine w/o EQ for years and it was very good-the EQ did nothing for extension it just tames some room boom- I got the drivers when they were on sale at PE for $400+shipping for 4 IB 15s-I made my manifold mostly out of scraps from other projects-there was no tuning or box finishing considerations and I was up and running in 2 days(really only one day after prebuilding the manifold in the shop)-and I had an old amp to power it already but that's a factor with any subwoofer
tiroth said:
or high WAF depending on how you see it-which is worse 2-5 cubic foot boxes in a 150 sqaure foot room that she decides where you can put them and what they have to look like-while the sound suffers because of suboptimal placement? or world class bass from what everyone assumes to be an A/C vent in the ceiling-if they notice it at all(most don't)
That is the impression I've gotten from reading the Cult of the Infinitely Baffled forum and website.. for respectable output, you need multiple drivers. I believe 2 x 15" drivers is often cited as the minimum on that forum. I'm not saying the IB bass is not of a much higer quality (in fact my next sub will be IB), I'm saying it is more expensive and complex than throwing a shiva or titanic in a sealed or vented box with a plate amp.
My point exactly. You don't have to spend this much on woofers to get good (albeit room sensitive) bass in a 'normal' sub.
I do agree on the WAF thing though, invisible is much better than a 3 cuft box in your living room.
Don't forget, If you live in an apartment, or if you have sensitive parents*cough cough*, Ib is no longer an option pretty much.
Just an FYI on someone looking to do an IB setup NOW:
Currently you can get the PE 500W amp at a ridiculous price ($197 'til Monday), Behringer has a $25 rebate on the BFD 'til january and, I think John Janowitz has a good sale on some 15" IB drivers ($100 a piece). Otherwise Dayton IB15s are $110 each (for 4+).
So what I'm trying to say is that its a GREAT time to get into an IB setup if you are interested.
PS Eight Dayton IB15's with the 500W amp would be jaw dropping or pants dropping or whatever kind of dropping you can think of.😀
Currently you can get the PE 500W amp at a ridiculous price ($197 'til Monday), Behringer has a $25 rebate on the BFD 'til january and, I think John Janowitz has a good sale on some 15" IB drivers ($100 a piece). Otherwise Dayton IB15s are $110 each (for 4+).
So what I'm trying to say is that its a GREAT time to get into an IB setup if you are interested.
PS Eight Dayton IB15's with the 500W amp would be jaw dropping or pants dropping or whatever kind of dropping you can think of.😀
IB is not the first thing that comes to mind when you talk of jaw dropping. Sound quality yes! High cost yes! You are basically getting the ability to put as many drivers in your room without taking up space, and they have the best transient response you can get, but basically the output of sealed boxes.
Horns come to mind.
Lots of undistorted midbass output.
Low bass - needs to be a LOT of it and a lot of excursion to really drop the jaw, the bottom octave the ear isn't sensitive to, so it needs to be louder than you think!
Horns come to mind.
Lots of undistorted midbass output.
Low bass - needs to be a LOT of it and a lot of excursion to really drop the jaw, the bottom octave the ear isn't sensitive to, so it needs to be louder than you think!
Well, superior sound quality, I'm not boasting that to the top, however, my transmission line has produced some jaw dropping bass. This was noted at the jaw-droppedness of over 100 students at my highschool this month.
I brought my line to the electronics classroom (fullsize highschool workshop, maybe 4000sq ft with around 18' cieling but not sure.) Not thinking it would do very much, but at least it would be an interesting test.
With 260W input I was easily able to make everything in the room shake loudly no matter where it was. All the windows vibrated madly and the lockers and shelves of parts were literally dancing around. My entire body felt like it was getting a massage from the waves of pressure in the air. It was simply unbelievable.
Maybe this sounds too good to be true, but if anyone wants to come see it, they could certainly do so.
The setup is a 6' line at 15" diameter using an alpine R series 10" single VC driver. Certainly not fast by any means, but quite strong.
This must definitely be a good demonstration of standing waves. lol
I brought my line to the electronics classroom (fullsize highschool workshop, maybe 4000sq ft with around 18' cieling but not sure.) Not thinking it would do very much, but at least it would be an interesting test.
With 260W input I was easily able to make everything in the room shake loudly no matter where it was. All the windows vibrated madly and the lockers and shelves of parts were literally dancing around. My entire body felt like it was getting a massage from the waves of pressure in the air. It was simply unbelievable.
Maybe this sounds too good to be true, but if anyone wants to come see it, they could certainly do so.
The setup is a 6' line at 15" diameter using an alpine R series 10" single VC driver. Certainly not fast by any means, but quite strong.
This must definitely be a good demonstration of standing waves. lol
Test tones are very different to music! When I play a sine wave tone with my TL's, it's easy to blow you away. For some reason it's not quite the same with music. With a 40 Hz tone you can drive people crazy and shake the room! Then again, there are passages of music with very strong bass that with a powerful amp you can impress friends with!
I understand your point here. But I was also playing music on the system, (it wasn't just the tline either, I had some fullrange speakers to make the music sound complete.)
Bachs famous tocatta for example. lol. That shook the place in a nasty way.
Bachs famous tocatta for example. lol. That shook the place in a nasty way.
For some rather impressive IB drivers, check out Ascendant Audio's Atlas series. The Avalanch 15 is a match (might win most matches) for the Tumult (including in a small sealed enclosure), and he's got an 18" beast too.
I currently have a pair of Dayton 15" IB subs on a 200W plate amp (rumber filter at 7.5hz) in a 1200cu/ft room. 3000cu/ft behind. Manifold mounted. Clean bass? Unquestionably. Jaw dropping bass? Yes. $300 invested. One of my demo discs is "The Fantasy Adventure Album" (Erich Kunzel, Cinci. Symphony Orchestra) - the T-Rex tracks are killer. The first couple footsteps are *entirely* subsonic. The first time through, the only impression I had that anything happened was the hair on the back of my neck rose. Second footstep was a bit of a shake. Third and you started to hear higher frequency noise. Put a glass of water on a table that's on the (carpeted) cement floor and it does the ripples thing beautifully. At 95dB playback levels.
Where does this fall short? Well - I don't have any EQ in the chain yet so it's a bit lumpy. It does roll off on the bottom end. And it's excursion limited. If I'm in a "loud" mood, I have to be careful on certain scenes. I am currently eyeing a couple of the Atlas 15's. Or four. 😀 Plus a different amp and some EQ.
At really low frequencies you run out of excursion pretty fast no matter what your alignment is (horn loading probably giving you the best SPL vs excursion).
C
I currently have a pair of Dayton 15" IB subs on a 200W plate amp (rumber filter at 7.5hz) in a 1200cu/ft room. 3000cu/ft behind. Manifold mounted. Clean bass? Unquestionably. Jaw dropping bass? Yes. $300 invested. One of my demo discs is "The Fantasy Adventure Album" (Erich Kunzel, Cinci. Symphony Orchestra) - the T-Rex tracks are killer. The first couple footsteps are *entirely* subsonic. The first time through, the only impression I had that anything happened was the hair on the back of my neck rose. Second footstep was a bit of a shake. Third and you started to hear higher frequency noise. Put a glass of water on a table that's on the (carpeted) cement floor and it does the ripples thing beautifully. At 95dB playback levels.
Where does this fall short? Well - I don't have any EQ in the chain yet so it's a bit lumpy. It does roll off on the bottom end. And it's excursion limited. If I'm in a "loud" mood, I have to be careful on certain scenes. I am currently eyeing a couple of the Atlas 15's. Or four. 😀 Plus a different amp and some EQ.
At really low frequencies you run out of excursion pretty fast no matter what your alignment is (horn loading probably giving you the best SPL vs excursion).
C
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