If you distrust measurements and trust your ears, then surely, rather than spending decades making subjective comparisons it is time to apply the scientific method, and make the one-time investment in the equipment needed to do level matching and ABX testing?
I think, perhaps, you will find that the differences are not so great as you imagine.
Please don't take offence, Carlos - it is just that I think your beliefs are colouring your hearing more than your amplifiers are.
I think, perhaps, you will find that the differences are not so great as you imagine.
Please don't take offence, Carlos - it is just that I think your beliefs are colouring your hearing more than your amplifiers are.
Class A amps are muffled because they spend so much energy to idle that they have no poop left for dynamics ...
Hi Carlos
Class A amplifier sound great only if BIG power supply is used, with CLC filter at least (BIG elcos and BIG coils)
p.s. RMI-FC100 isn't a true classA amplifier 😉 ... it has only few classA watts
Mihai
Class A amplifier sound great only if BIG power supply is used, with CLC filter at least (BIG elcos and BIG coils)
p.s. RMI-FC100 isn't a true classA amplifier 😉 ... it has only few classA watts
Mihai
Hi Carlos,
It looks like you are trying to send yourself mental. 😀
Throw away your class A amps (and chip amps). It sounds like low powered amps are not for you and your system.
I have found even though my speakers are quite efficient and should work with low powered amps they just don't sound as good. I don't know why? I have monitored the total watts consumed during normal listening levels and both channels together are drawing less than 20 watts.
At the moment I am using my AKSA 55 and AKSA 55N+ (with a tube buffer pre) in a biamp arrangement and am loving the result. Try using more amps even if you have to settle on passive crossovers. I'll have to try active crossovers one day.
Also, sandyK class A amp does indeed sound very good, so it's horses for courses rather than class A vs class AB IMHO.
BTW: On my system I found bi-amping chipamps not worthwhile.
regards
It looks like you are trying to send yourself mental. 😀
Throw away your class A amps (and chip amps). It sounds like low powered amps are not for you and your system.
I have found even though my speakers are quite efficient and should work with low powered amps they just don't sound as good. I don't know why? I have monitored the total watts consumed during normal listening levels and both channels together are drawing less than 20 watts.
At the moment I am using my AKSA 55 and AKSA 55N+ (with a tube buffer pre) in a biamp arrangement and am loving the result. Try using more amps even if you have to settle on passive crossovers. I'll have to try active crossovers one day.
Also, sandyK class A amp does indeed sound very good, so it's horses for courses rather than class A vs class AB IMHO.
BTW: On my system I found bi-amping chipamps not worthwhile.
regards
True that ABX will take a lot of work, but http://sound.westhost.com/abx-tester.htm will at least allow you to do it without spending too much....or at least, not more than an amplifier or two!
The design, of course, is for source components, but it's simple to see how it could be applied to feeding amplifier inputs.
The design, of course, is for source components, but it's simple to see how it could be applied to feeding amplifier inputs.
Good folks.... i love when you post your ideas, what you perceive and feel about
audio subjects.
For sure i have readed all of you, with enormous attention, word by word... and i have appreciated a lot.
To by a Slave was funny.
To trow my Chip amps and class A out was also interesting.
To expend into high bias and not lefting space for sound was great.
Visit of my dear friend, the best moderator, Carl Weldon, was special.
Well... i am glad you are posting and informing things and can have a nice conversation one each other.
Take your chairs, serve yourself with Coffee with biscuits and have good fun into the thread.
For a while, i will hold the soldering iron to tweak.
regards,
Carlos
audio subjects.
For sure i have readed all of you, with enormous attention, word by word... and i have appreciated a lot.
To by a Slave was funny.
To trow my Chip amps and class A out was also interesting.
To expend into high bias and not lefting space for sound was great.
Visit of my dear friend, the best moderator, Carl Weldon, was special.
Well... i am glad you are posting and informing things and can have a nice conversation one each other.
Take your chairs, serve yourself with Coffee with biscuits and have good fun into the thread.
For a while, i will hold the soldering iron to tweak.
regards,
Carlos
Well... changed my mind will make fast comments.
To ensure you i have readed your posts:
RKR - excelent post.... specially nice avatar
Carl - honored with your presence, even beeing because of Ken
Lumanauw - Yep, into RF the ceramics works stable
The Seekerr- No offence my dear...it is possible you may be rigth
Hitsware - no poop for dinamics...hehehehe...good!
Greg- Aksa is Aksa!... well...others are just others
Patrick flooding - we already pay for taxes enough money to buy one slave each month.
regards folks,
Soldering iron is already hot..time to do the best...TWEAKING.
Carlos
To ensure you i have readed your posts:
RKR - excelent post.... specially nice avatar
Carl - honored with your presence, even beeing because of Ken
Lumanauw - Yep, into RF the ceramics works stable
The Seekerr- No offence my dear...it is possible you may be rigth
Hitsware - no poop for dinamics...hehehehe...good!
Greg- Aksa is Aksa!... well...others are just others
Patrick flooding - we already pay for taxes enough money to buy one slave each month.
regards folks,
Soldering iron is already hot..time to do the best...TWEAKING.
Carlos
The real fun will start rigth now!
Soldering iron is hot!
Without faith and without religion, disarmed and
devoid of any pre conceived, concepted idea,
no truth can be more, bigger or better
that the human perception ... I am
searching, looking for the sound fullfill
my every day dreams ... I believe
nothing and no one ... nor in myself ...
only believe in what I am able hear, my
brain perceive and heart will feel. I am
into this long search for perfection, even knowing
that it does not exist ... but there must be something
not so far away from perfection .
what I use to
appreciate, things i rate as good
can be excellent; very good, good,
regular or awfull into your evaluation
Each person with their perception, their
culture, their genetics, their personality,
taste and feelings ... and this is what makes this
world so wonderful and a little bit confused at same
time... each of us is represents a unique world ... we are
stars at our stage of the big theater called life.
I do not ask you to believe me....i ask you NOT to believe me and try things by yourself... DIY is the idea... feel by yourself...i ask you to believe in your own ears plus brain and heart evaluations and not more than that.
I was listening the last Class A made...the DOZ, and i felt confused...can this thing be so bad this way?...... where are the trebles?..... i could not believe when daugther said:
_ Daddy, there's a pillow over the speaker...sounds ship!
You see... she has 11 years old...i was confused...she gave all i need.
We are not specials... a kid can beat us!
Soldering iron is hot!
Without faith and without religion, disarmed and
devoid of any pre conceived, concepted idea,
no truth can be more, bigger or better
that the human perception ... I am
searching, looking for the sound fullfill
my every day dreams ... I believe
nothing and no one ... nor in myself ...
only believe in what I am able hear, my
brain perceive and heart will feel. I am
into this long search for perfection, even knowing
that it does not exist ... but there must be something
not so far away from perfection .
what I use to
appreciate, things i rate as good
can be excellent; very good, good,
regular or awfull into your evaluation
Each person with their perception, their
culture, their genetics, their personality,
taste and feelings ... and this is what makes this
world so wonderful and a little bit confused at same
time... each of us is represents a unique world ... we are
stars at our stage of the big theater called life.
I do not ask you to believe me....i ask you NOT to believe me and try things by yourself... DIY is the idea... feel by yourself...i ask you to believe in your own ears plus brain and heart evaluations and not more than that.
I was listening the last Class A made...the DOZ, and i felt confused...can this thing be so bad this way?...... where are the trebles?..... i could not believe when daugther said:
_ Daddy, there's a pillow over the speaker...sounds ship!
You see... she has 11 years old...i was confused...she gave all i need.
We are not specials... a kid can beat us!
Attachments
The set is already assembled to start
You can see the adjustable, stabilized power supply.... the electronic regulator... series pass regulator and capacitance multiplier plus error amplifier.... 22000 plus 22000 uf to test reducing the power supply output impedance... so... supply will be used simple and them with huge condensers.
Also will use supply without electronic regulation...unfortunattelly i cannot cut out the snubbers, as they are already inside my bench supply....
In front the Death of Zen..... driver transistors will be replaced by 100 Megahertz units and all tweaking will be done into the capacitrs and condensers, also using the voltage between series condensers, bipolars non bipolars, series, parallel and bypassed ones.
target:
More trebles or bigger trebles...more amplitude into the high frequency or perceptive more interesting treble.
Carlos
You can see the adjustable, stabilized power supply.... the electronic regulator... series pass regulator and capacitance multiplier plus error amplifier.... 22000 plus 22000 uf to test reducing the power supply output impedance... so... supply will be used simple and them with huge condensers.
Also will use supply without electronic regulation...unfortunattelly i cannot cut out the snubbers, as they are already inside my bench supply....
In front the Death of Zen..... driver transistors will be replaced by 100 Megahertz units and all tweaking will be done into the capacitrs and condensers, also using the voltage between series condensers, bipolars non bipolars, series, parallel and bypassed ones.
target:
More trebles or bigger trebles...more amplitude into the high frequency or perceptive more interesting treble.
Carlos
Attachments
Carlos
Just as a matter of interest, when Silicon Chip magaziune developed the 15W/Ch. Class A in 1998, they stated that they started out with a simple supply with large value capacitors , but had to change to a fully regulated power supply as the S/N was so poor. (approx.-50dB) They claimed that even 50,000uF per rail would only have resulted in 80dB S/N. The reason was due to a 5V peak to peak ripple at the design current of 1A per channel. Since then , Douglas Self has come up with ways to further improve PSRR, so with their later 20W/Ch. design, they were able to dispense with the regulated PSU.
SandyK
Just as a matter of interest, when Silicon Chip magaziune developed the 15W/Ch. Class A in 1998, they stated that they started out with a simple supply with large value capacitors , but had to change to a fully regulated power supply as the S/N was so poor. (approx.-50dB) They claimed that even 50,000uF per rail would only have resulted in 80dB S/N. The reason was due to a 5V peak to peak ripple at the design current of 1A per channel. Since then , Douglas Self has come up with ways to further improve PSRR, so with their later 20W/Ch. design, they were able to dispense with the regulated PSU.
SandyK
One Lumanauw suggestion
Carlos.
Think you topic should not hav mentioned Class A specifically.
Because this title impose, that only Class A amplifiers will have 'mufled treble',
whatever this is ????
How many Class AB, Class D and how many Tube or MOSFET amplifiers have not 'mufled treble'?
There is nothing in the Class A technique that would render more problems than any other Class or technique.
There are good and less good amplifier of all sorts. Period!
I suppose, when you listen to DX-Amp you do not get this 'mufled treble' perception 😉
If comparing testdata from Dx-Amp contra for example Hiraga Class A
I would suppose that Mr. Hiraga amplifier would have less a problem with upper audiable audio freq ( 500-10000 Hertz ).
In general, I would say that Solid State Class A would tend to have less problem with higher frequencies. If there is any difference at all.
--------------
Like lumanauw suggests, there are other factors in your amplifiers that may 'improve' the upper range a bit.
As I like Hi-fi, I would like a flat transfer of all frequencies within the audio range.
By using filering techniques and other tweaks,
you may alter this flat response to suit your LoudSpeakers.
Because the main influence or deviation in upper range is, no doubt cause by midwoofer + tweeter.
😀 Tweeters sloope quite a bit. 😀
---------
Let me ask 3 simple questions:
Have you ever seen frequency curve of you LoudSpeaker?
Have you ever seen frequency curve of a good Class A amp?
Have you ever noticed some difference?
lumanauw said:
destroyer X said:
Carlos.
Think you topic should not hav mentioned Class A specifically.
Because this title impose, that only Class A amplifiers will have 'mufled treble',
whatever this is ????
How many Class AB, Class D and how many Tube or MOSFET amplifiers have not 'mufled treble'?
There is nothing in the Class A technique that would render more problems than any other Class or technique.
There are good and less good amplifier of all sorts. Period!
I suppose, when you listen to DX-Amp you do not get this 'mufled treble' perception 😉
If comparing testdata from Dx-Amp contra for example Hiraga Class A
I would suppose that Mr. Hiraga amplifier would have less a problem with upper audiable audio freq ( 500-10000 Hertz ).
In general, I would say that Solid State Class A would tend to have less problem with higher frequencies. If there is any difference at all.
--------------
Like lumanauw suggests, there are other factors in your amplifiers that may 'improve' the upper range a bit.
As I like Hi-fi, I would like a flat transfer of all frequencies within the audio range.
By using filering techniques and other tweaks,
you may alter this flat response to suit your LoudSpeakers.
Because the main influence or deviation in upper range is, no doubt cause by midwoofer + tweeter.
😀 Tweeters sloope quite a bit. 😀
---------
Let me ask 3 simple questions:
Have you ever seen frequency curve of you LoudSpeaker?
Have you ever seen frequency curve of a good Class A amp?
Have you ever noticed some difference?
Lineup Lateral Exicon Class A. AC Response
The frequency response in this analysis
is not from some Tweeter in some Speaker analysis software.
It is the approximate Frequency curve( + Phase curve )
of my Lateral class A.
Even if in real circuit, I would roll-off the upper bandwidth to something like -3dB at 200000 to 300000 Hertz
it shows the potential of a good Class A.
Where do you find one Tweeter with upper bandwidth of 200 kHz.
And one more valid question would be, as we are not rich, Carlos:
You know how your Speaker System have the upper.
- Specification? -6 dB/ -12 dB value usually
- Real measured response in Cabinet after speaker X-Over?
.. guess you have one good test microphone and can do some testings of your own 😉
Lineup - regards
-------------------------------
Attachment DOES NOT show curve of my speaker Tweeter!!!!
The frequency response in this analysis
is not from some Tweeter in some Speaker analysis software.
It is the approximate Frequency curve( + Phase curve )
of my Lateral class A.
Even if in real circuit, I would roll-off the upper bandwidth to something like -3dB at 200000 to 300000 Hertz
it shows the potential of a good Class A.
Where do you find one Tweeter with upper bandwidth of 200 kHz.
And one more valid question would be, as we are not rich, Carlos:
You know how your Speaker System have the upper.
- Specification? -6 dB/ -12 dB value usually
- Real measured response in Cabinet after speaker X-Over?
.. guess you have one good test microphone and can do some testings of your own 😉
Lineup - regards
-------------------------------
Attachment DOES NOT show curve of my speaker Tweeter!!!!
Attachments
Well.... i have made all testings... i continue to feel the unit mufled
compared to a toy Integrated circuit.... videos will be posted into youtube if you want to listen and evaluate by yourself.
Recordings are distorted.... but i felt more distortion while listening this class A.... the DOZ.
I think other class A may be less distorted and better...it is possible...but mufled is something i am perceiving since the sixties and this is confirmed now a days by my ears and your kid ears too.
- There's a pillow over the speaker daddy!
I found the same.
I have tried all suggestions...higher speed transistors, supply, coupling condensers, bipolar, normal, with bias into the middle, without any input condenser and i have tried into headphone too... transistors were replaced....and the single modification sounded a little better was the reduction of the feedback condenser where i have used a Bipolar unit.
regards,
Carlos
compared to a toy Integrated circuit.... videos will be posted into youtube if you want to listen and evaluate by yourself.
Recordings are distorted.... but i felt more distortion while listening this class A.... the DOZ.
I think other class A may be less distorted and better...it is possible...but mufled is something i am perceiving since the sixties and this is confirmed now a days by my ears and your kid ears too.
- There's a pillow over the speaker daddy!
I found the same.
I have tried all suggestions...higher speed transistors, supply, coupling condensers, bipolar, normal, with bias into the middle, without any input condenser and i have tried into headphone too... transistors were replaced....and the single modification sounded a little better was the reduction of the feedback condenser where i have used a Bipolar unit.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Yeah... i have tried stabilized, regulated low impedance electronic supply
No advantage.
Also i have tried standard supply....no advantage
Also i have tried 22.000 uf into the supply output....no good result
Also i have tried 44.000 uf into teh supply output...no good result
I have tried the simple supply using smaller condensers....i have remove bypass and reintroduced them.
I have removed the input condenser after replace it with several units, several brands, in series, in parallel, with bypass...without bypass.... in series with opposite polarities...in series with series polarities.... with battery into the line between them...have replace the input condenser with a wire too.
Boys....now i have to replace my car, my house or the country...as i have tried everything.
Mufled!... alike all Class A i have ever listened.
regards,
Carlos
No advantage.
Also i have tried standard supply....no advantage
Also i have tried 22.000 uf into the supply output....no good result
Also i have tried 44.000 uf into teh supply output...no good result
I have tried the simple supply using smaller condensers....i have remove bypass and reintroduced them.
I have removed the input condenser after replace it with several units, several brands, in series, in parallel, with bypass...without bypass.... in series with opposite polarities...in series with series polarities.... with battery into the line between them...have replace the input condenser with a wire too.
Boys....now i have to replace my car, my house or the country...as i have tried everything.
Mufled!... alike all Class A i have ever listened.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Hi Lineup,
have you seen the DX schematic?
Destroyer has altered the frequency response to give a treble boost to match his speakers output. He has been told about his speaker problem by his co-designer/team.
Any normal amplifier is going to sound muffled in comparison to the butchered response of the DX amplifier.
have you seen the DX schematic?
Destroyer has altered the frequency response to give a treble boost to match his speakers output. He has been told about his speaker problem by his co-designer/team.
Any normal amplifier is going to sound muffled in comparison to the butchered response of the DX amplifier.
I am sorry if you do not like my ideas
Sorry folks... i do not use to read AndrewT posts...so... i also do not answer his posts...not reading i cannot answer something i do not know and i do not want to know.
And he is the only one i have included into the "ignore" button... i do not think he is positive... i do not appreciate the guy.
Do not call me anti-social...forum has 70 thousand folks..but this gentleman is not nice into my mind and heart.
.......................................................................................................
I am only one...forum has 70 thousand.
To me it is mufled... and even 69999 will come here to say it is not i will show them it really is.
Will not show ALL them is this way... despite i know that this is true....i just cannot assemble all them to show folks.
I cannot accept a class A to loose to an integrated circuit..with small distances into electrodes (this forces factory to slow down them)
Sounds good.... or very good... class A is great...but if cannot win simple amplifiers...having small power and a lot of heat.
I am out of them!
regards,
Carlos
Sorry folks... i do not use to read AndrewT posts...so... i also do not answer his posts...not reading i cannot answer something i do not know and i do not want to know.
And he is the only one i have included into the "ignore" button... i do not think he is positive... i do not appreciate the guy.
Do not call me anti-social...forum has 70 thousand folks..but this gentleman is not nice into my mind and heart.
.......................................................................................................
I am only one...forum has 70 thousand.
To me it is mufled... and even 69999 will come here to say it is not i will show them it really is.
Will not show ALL them is this way... despite i know that this is true....i just cannot assemble all them to show folks.
I cannot accept a class A to loose to an integrated circuit..with small distances into electrodes (this forces factory to slow down them)
Sounds good.... or very good... class A is great...but if cannot win simple amplifiers...having small power and a lot of heat.
I am out of them!
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
- Status
- Not open for further replies.