Carlos
You do not mention the power or the type of class A amplifier. However I think there are a few reasons for a possible loss of treble;
1) Serious treble takes a lot of current. The leading edge of a cymbol clash takes more current than a lot of amplifiers can deliver. By their design most class A amplifiers deliver less current than class AB amplifiers. Maybe you are hearing that reduction in current.
2) Class A amplifiers have fewer distortions at 3rd order and above. They therefore sound smoother on the ear and not as loud or as grating as a class AB amplifier.
£) The amplifier input/amplifier and pre amp connection may be filtering the treble. Check the relative impedances and positions of any capaitors.
In general I have found that class A can take some getting used to after listening to class AB amps.
Enjoy the music and keep up the good posts.
Don
You do not mention the power or the type of class A amplifier. However I think there are a few reasons for a possible loss of treble;
1) Serious treble takes a lot of current. The leading edge of a cymbol clash takes more current than a lot of amplifiers can deliver. By their design most class A amplifiers deliver less current than class AB amplifiers. Maybe you are hearing that reduction in current.
2) Class A amplifiers have fewer distortions at 3rd order and above. They therefore sound smoother on the ear and not as loud or as grating as a class AB amplifier.
£) The amplifier input/amplifier and pre amp connection may be filtering the treble. Check the relative impedances and positions of any capaitors.
In general I have found that class A can take some getting used to after listening to class AB amps.
Enjoy the music and keep up the good posts.
Don
With 22uF and 2.2MegOhm, it's like bootstrapping. The 15V will swing following the signal. It will take about 1minute until the +have +15V, and if you try to measure it, even a scope probe or multimeter probe will steal the charge.
The JBL site have a nice explenation, comparing this method with xover distortion in amp's output stage.
This is why old designs (where the supply is only 0/+) could sound better, because the cap is working at the right polarity all the time (+ always bigger than - all the time, regardless of the signal). Look at single supply Naim gear or Nelson Pass' B1 buffer. It's not difficult to modify to +/0/-, but why they keep the single polarity supply?
In +/0/- supply if you use polarized elko for signal AC coupling, in half the signal, the polarity is in the wrong state.
You can try this simple experiment. Put 10kohm in series with polarized elko. Put the whole thing in +/-12VDC. When the bias is right, the voltage can reach full +12VDC. When the polarity is reversed (-terminal of the elko is headed to +12V), the voltage can never reach +12V (carefull, if you force this the elko can blow in front of you). This means corrupted transmission. Imagine the signal, it is weak, yet if we use polarized elko, it will corrupt half the data during the wrong polarity. This can steal the details from your amp reproduction.
The JBL site have a nice explenation, comparing this method with xover distortion in amp's output stage.
This is why old designs (where the supply is only 0/+) could sound better, because the cap is working at the right polarity all the time (+ always bigger than - all the time, regardless of the signal). Look at single supply Naim gear or Nelson Pass' B1 buffer. It's not difficult to modify to +/0/-, but why they keep the single polarity supply?
In +/0/- supply if you use polarized elko for signal AC coupling, in half the signal, the polarity is in the wrong state.
You can try this simple experiment. Put 10kohm in series with polarized elko. Put the whole thing in +/-12VDC. When the bias is right, the voltage can reach full +12VDC. When the polarity is reversed (-terminal of the elko is headed to +12V), the voltage can never reach +12V (carefull, if you force this the elko can blow in front of you). This means corrupted transmission. Imagine the signal, it is weak, yet if we use polarized elko, it will corrupt half the data during the wrong polarity. This can steal the details from your amp reproduction.
Yes Patrick... all those years i was thinking problems lyes here or there
Into the supply....into my kind of construction...into the board..into my speakers...and because of those doubts i was fooling myself.... they are a little bit mufled into trebles...this is the reality.
And this is fanatism from my side.... if we reduce the bass a little... the treble, even beeing felt, perceived, as small...will turn great.
So...i am trying to find the perfection searching for solutions.... really i am bothering myself too much with that stuff.
Be happy, and please... do not worry alike i do... this is something really sick i have inside my mind.
Better to listen good music, and stop to bother with details and sound analisis...just to wave together the music entering the nice dream
regards,
Carlos
Into the supply....into my kind of construction...into the board..into my speakers...and because of those doubts i was fooling myself.... they are a little bit mufled into trebles...this is the reality.
And this is fanatism from my side.... if we reduce the bass a little... the treble, even beeing felt, perceived, as small...will turn great.
So...i am trying to find the perfection searching for solutions.... really i am bothering myself too much with that stuff.
Be happy, and please... do not worry alike i do... this is something really sick i have inside my mind.
Better to listen good music, and stop to bother with details and sound analisis...just to wave together the music entering the nice dream
regards,
Carlos
Yes AMV8.... i have almost decided that
When i felt i could not find the perfect amplifier, then i lost my self confidence and decided to build a big class A and go listening the one and stop to search for the "perfect amplifier"
But that idea has not survived more than two hours while i was listening class A....not because the sound...but because the heat!...my weather is already very hot... i cannot stand for more heat inside my appartment...if heat increases i have to go out to cool myself...so....no room to class A and myself inside the appartment.
I had an idea... to install the amplifier in another room and to have a pré amplifier (passive) to adjust it...but too much cable..too much coaxial cable... this increases losses and capacitances and inductances and kill all advantage i can obtain from Class A audio reproduction.
I have tried overcurrent, undercurrent and a lot of different designs of amplifiers and supplies...maybe i can find something new to assemble...it is always possible.
Why that decision to go to build class A (build once again...maybe the hundred time)...because everybody say sounds better...so... when you lost the north... ask others were the North is.... the big problem with mine "lamb behavior"...following what others said....is the possibility they all are wrong and we can march to south instead of north.
ahahahahh!
regards,
Carlos
When i felt i could not find the perfect amplifier, then i lost my self confidence and decided to build a big class A and go listening the one and stop to search for the "perfect amplifier"
But that idea has not survived more than two hours while i was listening class A....not because the sound...but because the heat!...my weather is already very hot... i cannot stand for more heat inside my appartment...if heat increases i have to go out to cool myself...so....no room to class A and myself inside the appartment.
I had an idea... to install the amplifier in another room and to have a pré amplifier (passive) to adjust it...but too much cable..too much coaxial cable... this increases losses and capacitances and inductances and kill all advantage i can obtain from Class A audio reproduction.
I have tried overcurrent, undercurrent and a lot of different designs of amplifiers and supplies...maybe i can find something new to assemble...it is always possible.
Why that decision to go to build class A (build once again...maybe the hundred time)...because everybody say sounds better...so... when you lost the north... ask others were the North is.... the big problem with mine "lamb behavior"...following what others said....is the possibility they all are wrong and we can march to south instead of north.
ahahahahh!
regards,
Carlos
Interesting Lumanauw...but a little complex to me
I have to absorb all those thing and apply them into testing.
this is good to "feel".
Good to know the first one into the forum....thank you,
regards,
Carlos
I have to absorb all those thing and apply them into testing.
this is good to "feel".
Good to know the first one into the forum....thank you,
regards,
Carlos
Re: Yes Patrick... all those years i was thinking problems lyes here or there
I don't think I would be here on this forum if I was like that!
😉
Anyway, I enjoy the search, and the surprises if one throws away the preconceptions.
destroyer X said:
I don't think I would be here on this forum if I was like that!
😉
Anyway, I enjoy the search, and the surprises if one throws away the preconceptions.
Tryonziness... when the king is dead.... God save the new king!
Comparing A to B... and fixing A as reference.... someday B will be better.
Then you replace A..... not more the better.
Then you have B as reference, and you find it is better than C and D.
But A, the one has lost the trone...is also better than C and D.
This is a hell complex... and because of that i cannot inform you the reference... there are many references.... maybe to use A and B as reference...but suddenly you gonna have A, B, E, I, J, K, L and W as reference.... and what is the reference?
This is the main reason i could not find the perfect one...there are a lot of good ones...and each one of them with their own character..one is good into trebles..other into bass..other into both treble and bass and other into dinamics despite sounding harsh....well..there are combinations..multiple combinations.
Also... the amplifier performance is also connected to the type of music it will be playing... and "better" to someone, may be very low Intermodulation distortions...those amplifiers you listen for hours long.... they can measure and present low distortion while listening..but not better sonics...just more relaxing.
Not easy to tell you the better....if you want something...not to refuse to tell you something.... to listen from 2 to 10 watts peak...popular music from United States (country music)... the LM3886 is very good....hard to beat...but if you ask power it will go to the end of the line.
You will be always able to perceive something different and better into A to B..... but if you include C, D, E, F, G... well...you turn a hell confused... will have the need of a computer and even the computer will be enable.
The computer will ask you:
Better?... how better?..... into trebles?... into voices?, dinamics?.. then i will have many possible better ones...probable the software will stop to run and i will have to reboot the system.
After rebbooting the software will ask once more:
How good?
Carlos
Comparing A to B... and fixing A as reference.... someday B will be better.
Then you replace A..... not more the better.
Then you have B as reference, and you find it is better than C and D.
But A, the one has lost the trone...is also better than C and D.
This is a hell complex... and because of that i cannot inform you the reference... there are many references.... maybe to use A and B as reference...but suddenly you gonna have A, B, E, I, J, K, L and W as reference.... and what is the reference?
This is the main reason i could not find the perfect one...there are a lot of good ones...and each one of them with their own character..one is good into trebles..other into bass..other into both treble and bass and other into dinamics despite sounding harsh....well..there are combinations..multiple combinations.
Also... the amplifier performance is also connected to the type of music it will be playing... and "better" to someone, may be very low Intermodulation distortions...those amplifiers you listen for hours long.... they can measure and present low distortion while listening..but not better sonics...just more relaxing.
Not easy to tell you the better....if you want something...not to refuse to tell you something.... to listen from 2 to 10 watts peak...popular music from United States (country music)... the LM3886 is very good....hard to beat...but if you ask power it will go to the end of the line.
You will be always able to perceive something different and better into A to B..... but if you include C, D, E, F, G... well...you turn a hell confused... will have the need of a computer and even the computer will be enable.
The computer will ask you:
Better?... how better?..... into trebles?... into voices?, dinamics?.. then i will have many possible better ones...probable the software will stop to run and i will have to reboot the system.
After rebbooting the software will ask once more:
How good?
Carlos
If i could know the best possible reference i would not be seaching those last
47 years long...... only if bad luck and the reference result beeing the last model i have listened.
During some time i was thinking into Aksa 55 as reference....but also appeared Symassym...with different qualities...and them GEM, also very good the GEM, and many others very good.
Recently Roender have appeared with something very good...and Aksa has launched the space rocket...the wonderfull Maya amplifier.... well...it is a hell difficult to say.
I am unable to tell you the reference.... as i am loving the LM4780 working (LM3866 is not so different)....operating 10 watts.... i would say that something that can reproduce better than this one will be a nice thing to me.
But things are not so simple..... if i switch on the Symassym...the punch!... the power into dinamics is awsome...i will felt in love by Symassym...and of course will eat the LM4780...even if i try to fix power into 10 watts.... into the peaks after adjustment the Symassym will offer 40 during small time... and this you feel clearly as quality.... but will let me tired because the high end..will listen for 20 minutes only... will be tired with the last compared winner.... a hell difficult to me.
Sorry...i am not able..unable to tell the perfect one....if someone find...please, tell me!
regards,
Carlos
47 years long...... only if bad luck and the reference result beeing the last model i have listened.
During some time i was thinking into Aksa 55 as reference....but also appeared Symassym...with different qualities...and them GEM, also very good the GEM, and many others very good.
Recently Roender have appeared with something very good...and Aksa has launched the space rocket...the wonderfull Maya amplifier.... well...it is a hell difficult to say.
I am unable to tell you the reference.... as i am loving the LM4780 working (LM3866 is not so different)....operating 10 watts.... i would say that something that can reproduce better than this one will be a nice thing to me.
But things are not so simple..... if i switch on the Symassym...the punch!... the power into dinamics is awsome...i will felt in love by Symassym...and of course will eat the LM4780...even if i try to fix power into 10 watts.... into the peaks after adjustment the Symassym will offer 40 during small time... and this you feel clearly as quality.... but will let me tired because the high end..will listen for 20 minutes only... will be tired with the last compared winner.... a hell difficult to me.
Sorry...i am not able..unable to tell the perfect one....if someone find...please, tell me!
regards,
Carlos
Re: Yes Brian...but not only better trebles to the Macintosh
You aren't wrong. Trust your ears and trust your memory. I can vouch for your experience. I haven't auditioned a Macintosh tube amp but I understand exactly what you are describing and you are correct.
This is why I never gave up trying to resolve this problem. It is a tough problem to figure out. But it can be figured out.
I imagine the Macintosh is a class A design, at least at normal listening levels. So I don't think the class is the issue. I guess what you are finding is that push-pull, class A transistor amps reduce the treble fidelity, etc., compared with the tube amp.
So here we sort the men from the boys, or the women from the girls. There are those who measure THD and find the transistor amp is much better than the tube and deny their own hearing; then there are those who trust their hearing and try to find out why it is that transistor amps mangle the sound in spite of lower THD.
Carlos, you are the man!
destroyer X said:
You aren't wrong. Trust your ears and trust your memory. I can vouch for your experience. I haven't auditioned a Macintosh tube amp but I understand exactly what you are describing and you are correct.
This is why I never gave up trying to resolve this problem. It is a tough problem to figure out. But it can be figured out.
I imagine the Macintosh is a class A design, at least at normal listening levels. So I don't think the class is the issue. I guess what you are finding is that push-pull, class A transistor amps reduce the treble fidelity, etc., compared with the tube amp.
So here we sort the men from the boys, or the women from the girls. There are those who measure THD and find the transistor amp is much better than the tube and deny their own hearing; then there are those who trust their hearing and try to find out why it is that transistor amps mangle the sound in spite of lower THD.
Carlos, you are the man!
Oh my dear..... am i the man?...i am feeling so confused those last monthes
Thank you...but really... a good idea is to seach for the real man.
I do not think i am the one.... 47 years seaching and could not find the best amplifier..... young folks ask me and i said, filled with shame:
- "I don't know"
Really... this is not a good sign of competence.
There are moments that i feel myself very lost..and i start to think to go to a shop and buy something already made.... a consumer product and stop this long search
But after some minutes passed i feel that will be not a good idea to give up to all this fun to search the unreachable.
regards,
Carlos
Thank you...but really... a good idea is to seach for the real man.
I do not think i am the one.... 47 years seaching and could not find the best amplifier..... young folks ask me and i said, filled with shame:
- "I don't know"
Really... this is not a good sign of competence.
There are moments that i feel myself very lost..and i start to think to go to a shop and buy something already made.... a consumer product and stop this long search
But after some minutes passed i feel that will be not a good idea to give up to all this fun to search the unreachable.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Well folks...i am still reading and tomorrow will finish
Then i will do some testings.
In one week i will bring the thread alive once again and will publish the results i had using those informs.
Well... to the ones do not know me...the testing is tweaking and listening...no instruments...only listening.
regards,
Carlos
Then i will do some testings.
In one week i will bring the thread alive once again and will publish the results i had using those informs.
Well... to the ones do not know me...the testing is tweaking and listening...no instruments...only listening.
regards,
Carlos
Oh!... an internal revolution is happening inside my belly..organs are jumping into
a severe revolution.... internally i am hardly not appreciating what i have readed.
A problem to learn when things goes against things you have learned.
I remember Nakamich tape recorders (the good ones) had only the tantalum condensers as difference from the other brands..and this was into the Nakamichi cassete deck factory starting operation...heads, motors , transistors and all things were the same you could find in other Japanese industries...generic parts offered inside Japanese Market...... well... the Nakamich sounded much better... and was not adjustment because i used to adjust all tape decks and could compare them using the same standard of adjustment...my standard...using DIN reference cassete tape to playback alignment and then i have entered the recording levels, bias and equalizations.
The Nakamich was clearly better..and famous because of that...and the difference was the tantalum condensers...now a days people dislike as they really goes shorted very easy...not reliable...but sound was considered great.
What will i do to accept those tantalum as something that distorts the sound a lot... tests made show that... and now?... what to believe?.,... my living experience.... the fame and reviews made with the Tantalum cassete recorder (the only difference was tantalum into couplings and decouplings) or to believe into the text i have readed from Mr. Young.
To believe or not to believe... this is the hell question!
regards,
Carlos
a severe revolution.... internally i am hardly not appreciating what i have readed.
A problem to learn when things goes against things you have learned.
I remember Nakamich tape recorders (the good ones) had only the tantalum condensers as difference from the other brands..and this was into the Nakamichi cassete deck factory starting operation...heads, motors , transistors and all things were the same you could find in other Japanese industries...generic parts offered inside Japanese Market...... well... the Nakamich sounded much better... and was not adjustment because i used to adjust all tape decks and could compare them using the same standard of adjustment...my standard...using DIN reference cassete tape to playback alignment and then i have entered the recording levels, bias and equalizations.
The Nakamich was clearly better..and famous because of that...and the difference was the tantalum condensers...now a days people dislike as they really goes shorted very easy...not reliable...but sound was considered great.
What will i do to accept those tantalum as something that distorts the sound a lot... tests made show that... and now?... what to believe?.,... my living experience.... the fame and reviews made with the Tantalum cassete recorder (the only difference was tantalum into couplings and decouplings) or to believe into the text i have readed from Mr. Young.
To believe or not to believe... this is the hell question!
regards,
Carlos
Yes, IMHO, treble DOES decrease with respects to full absolute transient speed or 'peak value accuracy'. This will NOT..I repeat NOT show up as something that is greater than some ridiculous 0.01% or less artifact.
However, the ear hears via peak transient value as mixture of time, harmonics, and levels in the specific sense..so the ear hears it..whereas the 'full spectrum full signal weighted measurement system' we use in audio..it will register as ...NOTHING.
But the ear hears it, for that tiny bit, about 10% of the signal overall...is all that the ear hears, and hears it as 100% of the signal.
And is the ear better than measurement systems?
YES.
However, the ear hears via peak transient value as mixture of time, harmonics, and levels in the specific sense..so the ear hears it..whereas the 'full spectrum full signal weighted measurement system' we use in audio..it will register as ...NOTHING.
But the ear hears it, for that tiny bit, about 10% of the signal overall...is all that the ear hears, and hears it as 100% of the signal.
And is the ear better than measurement systems?
YES.
Don't worry Carlos. Ceramic cap is bad in that article. In my current experiment (classD), it performs better than silver mica, WIMA FKP, FKS, MKP, etc. There are things that only ceramic can do, other capacitor type cannot, like working to Mhz region. I need this property for classD amps.
Same experience with you an tantalum.
On the other side, if you don't want Mhz entering your CCT, just use elko, it will naturally reject Mhz.
Same experience with you an tantalum.
On the other side, if you don't want Mhz entering your CCT, just use elko, it will naturally reject Mhz.
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