sam9 said:
The good thing about auto-placement, however, is that it puts the pieces of the puzzle in close proximity to where they eventually should be -- most of the time.
If you get the demo-version of Ultiboard 7 there auto-placement function is enabled -- but you can't "file save" with the demo.
I just bought a software called Sprint-Layout from
http://www.abacom-online.de/html/sprint-layout.html
For 39.90 EUR I think it's an exeptional value.
I used to use Eagle and also tried TraxMaker, Protel, etc. but always felt they were overly complicated and not intuitive.
Well the Sprint-Layout is what the name says. It is not overly advanced but it supports 2 layer PCB with silkscreens on both sides (really who need more for DIY audio?), automatic groundplane filling and very easy to get interface.
One more fine feature which I have not tested yet but look very promising is to be able to import image file and put it as background and draw a board according to image file. As the Sprint-Layout exports gerber it should be possible to send the data to any decent PCB manufacturer.
Anyway, just one more program, but give it a try with a working demo.
Ergo
http://www.abacom-online.de/html/sprint-layout.html
For 39.90 EUR I think it's an exeptional value.
I used to use Eagle and also tried TraxMaker, Protel, etc. but always felt they were overly complicated and not intuitive.
Well the Sprint-Layout is what the name says. It is not overly advanced but it supports 2 layer PCB with silkscreens on both sides (really who need more for DIY audio?), automatic groundplane filling and very easy to get interface.
One more fine feature which I have not tested yet but look very promising is to be able to import image file and put it as background and draw a board according to image file. As the Sprint-Layout exports gerber it should be possible to send the data to any decent PCB manufacturer.
Anyway, just one more program, but give it a try with a working demo.
Ergo
Right Ergo 
For DIY you hardly need more. But the autofill feature is too limited to be much useful IMHO. You get better and neater results by filling large copper areas using the polygon feature.
Tip: Always check the Gerber output with a Gerber viewer to avoid nasty surprises. This not only holds for SE but for all PCB programs.
Cheers
For DIY you hardly need more. But the autofill feature is too limited to be much useful IMHO. You get better and neater results by filling large copper areas using the polygon feature.
Tip: Always check the Gerber output with a Gerber viewer to avoid nasty surprises. This not only holds for SE but for all PCB programs.
Cheers
I'm particularly interested in a package (at a reasonable price!) that integraes Spice/Schematic/Layout. Re-entering a circuit that has been checked in Spice to an unrelated schematic editor just so one can do a board layout is a source for potential error. Especially when the interfaces are quite different. There seem to be three that fit this in price range I can live with
Spicecycle/Spiceage
Ivex (new version - I dumped the old one that would run on XP)
BeigeBag + Eagle
Has anyone experiece with these? Particularly moving from the simulation/idea stage to layout?
Spicecycle/Spiceage
Ivex (new version - I dumped the old one that would run on XP)
BeigeBag + Eagle
Has anyone experiece with these? Particularly moving from the simulation/idea stage to layout?
I'm using Proteus from labcenter.co.uk. I think they have a 'lite' version for about 100 $ US. Works reasonably well, nice simulator with graphs on the same page if you want, animation (see the currents flow in your circuit) and interactive components (there are switches, for example, that you can 'throw' in a working circuit by clicking them with the mouse).
If you are in PIC or other microcontrollers, Proteus can simulate/runs these as well and links to your code so you can really simulate your microcontroller circuits VERY realistically. That actually is their forte.
Although the package has an auto-router, I only use that to get a rough idea of my parts placement, then do routing interactively by hand, especially for audio work, I'd like to be in control.
I have no experience with any of the others. I tried Ivex years ago but found it so hard to learn that I abandoned it.
Jan Didden
If you are in PIC or other microcontrollers, Proteus can simulate/runs these as well and links to your code so you can really simulate your microcontroller circuits VERY realistically. That actually is their forte.
Although the package has an auto-router, I only use that to get a rough idea of my parts placement, then do routing interactively by hand, especially for audio work, I'd like to be in control.
I have no experience with any of the others. I tried Ivex years ago but found it so hard to learn that I abandoned it.
Jan Didden
I use Proteus, from Labcenter in the UK. They do really excellent Lite versions of both their Schematic and PCB design packages, and they are a bargain at the price they ask:
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/
If you have a look at my excuse for a website:
http://www.btinternet.com/~jaytt
all the scematic and PCB stuff on there is produced with Proteus, and the zipfiles contain more, and higher res, jpgs than are shown on the web pages.
I tried umpteen CAD packages before Proteus, and it beats 'em all hands down. I cannot speak too highly of it.
Regards
JohnT
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/
If you have a look at my excuse for a website:
http://www.btinternet.com/~jaytt
all the scematic and PCB stuff on there is produced with Proteus, and the zipfiles contain more, and higher res, jpgs than are shown on the web pages.
I tried umpteen CAD packages before Proteus, and it beats 'em all hands down. I cannot speak too highly of it.
Regards
JohnT
Another vote for EasyPC
I used Eagle for a while and rate it highly, but its licensing model is too restrictive for my work (board size as opposed to pin count).
I used to use EasyPC, and have gone back to it, the Windows versions are great, currently at v7, but v8 is due VERY soon.
It will add some great functionality, including freehand routing, with automatic tidying up and mitreing + Eagle import, which I am reliably informed will be useable as if the board were designed in EasyPC.
A note on simulations though, none of the ones I've tried integrate very well, they were all a bit 'bolt on'. The Beige Bag stuff was powerful was hard work to get the speed out of in my experience, too much tweaking required to otpimise performance.
My favourite is Simetrix (http://www.catena.uk.com/), which is truly excellent. It's actually the simulator that is available for EasyPC, but I found the integration poor, so I use the free one from the Simetrix site to design the schematic / netlist, and then import the netlist into the full version I have with EasyPC, which can be run standalone. I found this much quicker than trying to create the netlist / schematic in EasyPC's schematic editor (not because it isn't any good, but simply that the method to assign Spice parameters etc. was laborious).
Also, check out Pro-router add-on for Easy PC if you do any high density, non-audio, digital stuff, the demo I have looks to be the best autorouter I've tried yet, it certainly beats BlazeRouter (PowerPCB) for both speed and definitely for quality.
For audio though an autorouter will not get you a good layout - use it as others have mentioned, as a means to ensure the layout is routable / spot obvious problems, then route by hand, optimally. You'll throw away a load of performance if you autoroute, I guarantee it.
Andy.
I used Eagle for a while and rate it highly, but its licensing model is too restrictive for my work (board size as opposed to pin count).
I used to use EasyPC, and have gone back to it, the Windows versions are great, currently at v7, but v8 is due VERY soon.
It will add some great functionality, including freehand routing, with automatic tidying up and mitreing + Eagle import, which I am reliably informed will be useable as if the board were designed in EasyPC.
A note on simulations though, none of the ones I've tried integrate very well, they were all a bit 'bolt on'. The Beige Bag stuff was powerful was hard work to get the speed out of in my experience, too much tweaking required to otpimise performance.
My favourite is Simetrix (http://www.catena.uk.com/), which is truly excellent. It's actually the simulator that is available for EasyPC, but I found the integration poor, so I use the free one from the Simetrix site to design the schematic / netlist, and then import the netlist into the full version I have with EasyPC, which can be run standalone. I found this much quicker than trying to create the netlist / schematic in EasyPC's schematic editor (not because it isn't any good, but simply that the method to assign Spice parameters etc. was laborious).
Also, check out Pro-router add-on for Easy PC if you do any high density, non-audio, digital stuff, the demo I have looks to be the best autorouter I've tried yet, it certainly beats BlazeRouter (PowerPCB) for both speed and definitely for quality.
For audio though an autorouter will not get you a good layout - use it as others have mentioned, as a means to ensure the layout is routable / spot obvious problems, then route by hand, optimally. You'll throw away a load of performance if you autoroute, I guarantee it.
Andy.
jackinnj said:
I have the same problem, but a different version...you can always just open it by double-clicking the files in Windows Explorer...but it ****es me off!
I am using P-CAD now and it is nothing but impressive, I find it has more features than Ultiboard and I just like the way it works better. Easier to use and even has an autoplacement tool that I have not figured out how to use yet...time will teach me I guess.
-Matt
I have the same bad experience with Ultiboard/Ultisim etc as mentioned above. I know the product since it was launched by a Dutchman, who I happened to meet once or twice. I have been trying the product out several times over the last 20 years or so, enticed by great advertising. Without exception everytime I had problems even to get it to run stable. One solution suggested was that I buy THEIR workstation to be sure it ran well!
It is a mystery to me how such a product can survive for so long in the market. Maybe they follow the lesson learned from Hi-End Audio: if you make it expensive enough, people will buy anything.
Jan Didden
It is a mystery to me how such a product can survive for so long in the market. Maybe they follow the lesson learned from Hi-End Audio: if you make it expensive enough, people will buy anything.
Jan Didden
I use;
PCB Elegance, to be found at www.merco.nl
Also a Dutch PCB design software. I use it already since 2000, very stable and fast program. In case of some program errors you normaly get in one or two days an update.
In the demo you can see a design for a 486 motherboard.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
PCB Elegance, to be found at www.merco.nl
Also a Dutch PCB design software. I use it already since 2000, very stable and fast program. In case of some program errors you normaly get in one or two days an update.
In the demo you can see a design for a 486 motherboard.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
Janneman,
When you download the program, and install it, you find in the directory the manual. If you like I can also mail it to you.
Mine email adres is info@hypex.nl
I have had also a bad experience with Ultiboard, altough it is very much used in the Netherlands. For designers who looks to a fast NONE AUTOROUTER pcb design program, PCB Elegance is worth to try. We use it to design High Class-D amplifiers (450W) with a lot of 0805 SMD and power fet's running at 450kHz, so we definatly need a good software to create groundplanes and wide copper tracks.
Jan-Peter
When you download the program, and install it, you find in the directory the manual. If you like I can also mail it to you.
Mine email adres is info@hypex.nl
I have had also a bad experience with Ultiboard, altough it is very much used in the Netherlands. For designers who looks to a fast NONE AUTOROUTER pcb design program, PCB Elegance is worth to try. We use it to design High Class-D amplifiers (450W) with a lot of 0805 SMD and power fet's running at 450kHz, so we definatly need a good software to create groundplanes and wide copper tracks.
Jan-Peter
janneman said:
Well actually Ultiboard provides a lot of power for the money compared to other professional packages costing many times more. That is why it survived in the past in industry. I’m using the 1999 version that is called in the manual Ultiboard 2000
It runs under W2K but not very stable, saving every 5 min. is a must. The user interface is very counter intuitive and many obvious things are possible with workarounds requiring imagination, forget about user support. But once you managed to tame the little dragon it is not that bad.Have seen and used a lot of other much more expensive PCB packages, no one is easy to learn and intuitive. They all are nasty dragons difficult to tame. The only one I remember that was a pleasure to work with was RUN on the Mac which isn’t anymore.
Jan-Peter,
PCB Elegance looks interesting, will look further into it.
Cheers
Elso,
Interesting you say that. I have used Boardmaker several years, then lost the dongle during a move. Although I could prove to the company that I bought it with my invoice (I was even on their customer list) they insisted I pay half the new price for a new dongle, which I thought was absurd. Their last remark was that I should claim it from the moving company...
I have since found back the dongle in a dark corner, but at that time had already bought Proteus. Boardmaker is a DOS program, does it run well on an XP machine?
I also used Layo; in fact, I wrote the English and Dutch language user and reference manuals for them at the end of the 90-ies and introduced the program to AudioXpress (then still Audio Amateur)so I am quite familiar with it.
Jan Didden
Interesting you say that. I have used Boardmaker several years, then lost the dongle during a move. Although I could prove to the company that I bought it with my invoice (I was even on their customer list) they insisted I pay half the new price for a new dongle, which I thought was absurd. Their last remark was that I should claim it from the moving company...
I have since found back the dongle in a dark corner, but at that time had already bought Proteus. Boardmaker is a DOS program, does it run well on an XP machine?
I also used Layo; in fact, I wrote the English and Dutch language user and reference manuals for them at the end of the 90-ies and introduced the program to AudioXpress (then still Audio Amateur)so I am quite familiar with it.
Jan Didden
Boardmaker
Hi Jan,
I have a slightly later version of Boardmaker where the omitted the dongle but it is still BM1 running under DOS. It does not run well in a DOS window under Windows ME. I use it on an old 386 computer not connected to the internet. At Tsien they no longer support it. www.tsien.com
I had a copy of Layo without manual but threw it away......Not my piece of cake.
Hi Jan,
I have a slightly later version of Boardmaker where the omitted the dongle but it is still BM1 running under DOS. It does not run well in a DOS window under Windows ME. I use it on an old 386 computer not connected to the internet. At Tsien they no longer support it. www.tsien.com
I had a copy of Layo without manual but threw it away......Not my piece of cake.
Jan,
I have had also some contact with them about their Windows version. But that was 4-6 years ago. Around the same time I saw an advertisement in Elektuur about PCB Elegance. After some trials a start to work with it. In the meantime the designer of PCB Elegance did listen to a lot to mine idees as a Layo1 user!
So please give it a try and tell us your experience.
Jan-Peter
I have had also some contact with them about their Windows version. But that was 4-6 years ago. Around the same time I saw an advertisement in Elektuur about PCB Elegance. After some trials a start to work with it. In the meantime the designer of PCB Elegance did listen to a lot to mine idees as a Layo1 user!
So please give it a try and tell us your experience.
Jan-Peter
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