Hi,
The room gain subject is not easy to me, at least I know my room is around 40 m² with a plaster half wall in the middle (at around 6 m from the front wall) , bay window on a side, doors on the other side... so very loossy.
My basic understanding is there is some gain in most rooms since 200 to 300 hz, but I am wondering what should be thhe targett of the bass curve when moddeling with (Vituix) whatever sealed or BR (SBB4 in mind if so) to have enough bass for most of the materials (40 hz low end very often).
Is there a minimal targett for the f3 f6 and f10 I should not go below for something not lacking bass according the rest of the (said) flat magnitude in the medium.
I have no way to measure my room gain by measuring outside and substract from the inside measurement to have my room gain curve. Another basic understanding from the Diya page is I should not care too much of the room gain below 100/150 hz and see it has a plus if existing and at the end just move the seat according the most pleasing pressure node (peak and null aka modes) ?
Guidance appreciated please
; I have hard time to decide if I should go vented for low enough or if sealed with big Sd but highish Fs and tunning is good enough for music.
As an illustration, could you live with a f6 at 40 hz for instance ? Noway as I see it to make a 3 to 6 dB low end diving curve without DSP and bix Xmax drivers !
The room gain subject is not easy to me, at least I know my room is around 40 m² with a plaster half wall in the middle (at around 6 m from the front wall) , bay window on a side, doors on the other side... so very loossy.
My basic understanding is there is some gain in most rooms since 200 to 300 hz, but I am wondering what should be thhe targett of the bass curve when moddeling with (Vituix) whatever sealed or BR (SBB4 in mind if so) to have enough bass for most of the materials (40 hz low end very often).
Is there a minimal targett for the f3 f6 and f10 I should not go below for something not lacking bass according the rest of the (said) flat magnitude in the medium.
I have no way to measure my room gain by measuring outside and substract from the inside measurement to have my room gain curve. Another basic understanding from the Diya page is I should not care too much of the room gain below 100/150 hz and see it has a plus if existing and at the end just move the seat according the most pleasing pressure node (peak and null aka modes) ?
Guidance appreciated please
; I have hard time to decide if I should go vented for low enough or if sealed with big Sd but highish Fs and tunning is good enough for music.As an illustration, could you live with a f6 at 40 hz for instance ? Noway as I see it to make a 3 to 6 dB low end diving curve without DSP and bix Xmax drivers !
Hmm, all this depends on whether movie soundtracks, pipe organ symphonies are included where to do them justice means house/occupants damaging IME, but it's only designed for modest Southern living conditions, so nothing like required up north of the Mason-Dixon Line and wherever that equates to around the world.
You just need to do one thing - measure your room. Especially when the room is not "ideal" (concrete rectengular) it's not easy to predict.
And measurements are not hard to do. Get a bass chassis, closed enclosure, do a nearfield measurement. Then put the woofer in a corner and move around the room and do measurements. You will quickly see and gain knowledge about the behaviour of the room. There are some resonances who will stick and some will strongly move. Then start moving the subwoofer. Take 1-2h time for this and maybe continue after some thinking.
For reference listening my goal is easy - going down to 25Hz linear. With closed subwoofers that's not hard to achieve - you just need enough of them and the knowledge how to linearize them in the room.
Here the FR of my main speakers in my listening room - no subwoofers but the LF drivers (4x20cm) sit on a good position to form a bass array. Sorry for the strange 2,5dB scale ... AP thinks that's a good idea ...
Closed volume - with the ability to EQ you can get EVERY FREQUENCY RESPONSE you want to have! You just need enough SD and Xmax to achieve it in the level you need.
And measurements are not hard to do. Get a bass chassis, closed enclosure, do a nearfield measurement. Then put the woofer in a corner and move around the room and do measurements. You will quickly see and gain knowledge about the behaviour of the room. There are some resonances who will stick and some will strongly move. Then start moving the subwoofer. Take 1-2h time for this and maybe continue after some thinking.
For reference listening my goal is easy - going down to 25Hz linear. With closed subwoofers that's not hard to achieve - you just need enough of them and the knowledge how to linearize them in the room.
Here the FR of my main speakers in my listening room - no subwoofers but the LF drivers (4x20cm) sit on a good position to form a bass array. Sorry for the strange 2,5dB scale ... AP thinks that's a good idea ...
Closed volume - with the ability to EQ you can get EVERY FREQUENCY RESPONSE you want to have! You just need enough SD and Xmax to achieve it in the level you need.
Greets!
Some of the better recorded jazz recordings have plenty of bass, piano energy down into the 20s, though as others have indicated, the room and driver placement can add it in IF the speakers are acoustically sized/tuned for it.
Ditto for some of the modern recording's (sub) bass measurements I've seen, not to mention the music part of movie soundtracks, especially the 'action' ones that can get down to room rumbling < 10 Hz, so in general, high power sealed is the goal.
Me too. Here is one of my front main speakers measured from the seat. 1/48th smoothing. There's LOTS of PEQ to a room curve that sounds great. It uses a DIY 36dB/octave rumble filter cornering at 15Hz with a Q of 0.7071 to protect things from unwanted/wasted energy without taking anything at 20Hz or above. Sealed Morel 12" woofers and a Linkwitz Transform is in place. I play plenty of music that includes strong content to around 20Hz.
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Yeah can't beat it. You don't even need those fancy FIR CPU-hungry options. Just REW to generate the filters and JRiver Media Centre to type them all in. They act exactly like "perfect" analogue filters with IIR. I run 4 subs all with their own EQ (a multi-channel DAC is used) and CPU usage while playing is only around 1% on a basic Windows mini PC. That measurement was made using REW swept through JRiver Media Center's WDM en route to the active crossover, so it picks up the EQ settings. It matches REW's prediction perfectly. For the rumble filter you could also just type it in, although I built a PCB with a circuit designed using FilterPro to do the same job and it has the same transfer function as JRiver at line level give or take 1 degree of phase lag due to capacitor tolerances.
^ great answers.
Diyiggy this should help you and will be easy to understand ( i suggest you view most of his video, good really serious stuff and for one time it's in our native language):
Basically this is how i do it (i've copied what i've seen done in prof studio):
For this one of course you don't need all points, the ones you really need are enough to determinate the issues you'll try to fight ( listening position and/or area -eg, a couch). If you plan to use some kind of basstrapping it helps too ( measure at free locations on your walls and see where they'll be the most effective to locate them).
Diyiggy this should help you and will be easy to understand ( i suggest you view most of his video, good really serious stuff and for one time it's in our native language):
For this one of course you don't need all points, the ones you really need are enough to determinate the issues you'll try to fight ( listening position and/or area -eg, a couch). If you plan to use some kind of basstrapping it helps too ( measure at free locations on your walls and see where they'll be the most effective to locate them).
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Depend of the kind you use. All are not helmotz resonators ( which by the way benefits to be located at place where they are more effective anyway...).
https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=1597.0
Audiothings is a member here. A part of his occupation is to implement control room based upon Hidley's 'zero environnement' principle, but he does it in much less space than Hidley ever did by using a combination of VPR basstrap and absorbent combination. They are located 'onwall'.
Thomas Jouanjouan is the 2020's Hidley ( star acoustician worldwide) and he as well as Phillip Newell's son ( which took the business after Philipp retired, he worked with Hidley on 'zero environnment' principle) appreciated Jai's results on real room at gearspace forum where he documented.
It's there if you search for it...
Here is his company site:
https://www.turnkeyacoustics.com/
https://www.turnkeyacoustics.com/the-non-environment-control-room
So yes some basstraps can be located onwall.
https://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=1597.0
Audiothings is a member here. A part of his occupation is to implement control room based upon Hidley's 'zero environnement' principle, but he does it in much less space than Hidley ever did by using a combination of VPR basstrap and absorbent combination. They are located 'onwall'.
Thomas Jouanjouan is the 2020's Hidley ( star acoustician worldwide) and he as well as Phillip Newell's son ( which took the business after Philipp retired, he worked with Hidley on 'zero environnment' principle) appreciated Jai's results on real room at gearspace forum where he documented.
It's there if you search for it...
Here is his company site:
https://www.turnkeyacoustics.com/
https://www.turnkeyacoustics.com/the-non-environment-control-room
So yes some basstraps can be located onwall.
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My room has no "treatments" that aren't normal furnishings and I showed you the bass performance achieved with simple EQ. That was to Toole's recommendations of targetting modes with cuts of the same magnitude and Q. Spectrogram is fine. No room treatment can achieve the kind of targeted "absorption" that careful EQ can achieve. Follow commercially-motivated people like that and you'll get nowhere fast with a room full of garbage that has no place in a domestic living space. Seriously.
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It's perfectly fine results and i'm glad you are pleased to follow Toole's recommandation.
But ...I don't care what Toole's says ( most of the time, he just spread 'common' knowledge in pro circle to amateurs and in no way is the messiah about audio reproduction): eq are some nice tools but not a cure for all disease, and it's been my job to implement control room like Jai did so my clients were not individuals with 'basic' requirements and requesting some proof of what have been done to pay, so i know what i talk about too and even if i use eq and other means to treat rooms it's part of a strategy not a end of it all single solution.
You seems to be bothered by a simple suggestion not following your line of thoughts: in my view either you have no experience about room treatments either as you say in english 'when the only tool you have is a hammer every issues looks like a nail'.
Too bad as i found your comments great as the others one and weird reaction to me when posting in a subsection called 'room acoustics' to dismiss room treatments...
But ...I don't care what Toole's says ( most of the time, he just spread 'common' knowledge in pro circle to amateurs and in no way is the messiah about audio reproduction): eq are some nice tools but not a cure for all disease, and it's been my job to implement control room like Jai did so my clients were not individuals with 'basic' requirements and requesting some proof of what have been done to pay, so i know what i talk about too and even if i use eq and other means to treat rooms it's part of a strategy not a end of it all single solution.
You seems to be bothered by a simple suggestion not following your line of thoughts: in my view either you have no experience about room treatments either as you say in english 'when the only tool you have is a hammer every issues looks like a nail'.
Too bad as i found your comments great as the others one and weird reaction to me when posting in a subsection called 'room acoustics' to dismiss room treatments...
Hi,
The room gain subject is not easy to me, at least I know my room is around 40 m² with a plaster half wall in the middle (at around 6 m from the front wall) , bay window on a side, doors on the other side... so very loossy.
My basic understanding is there is some gain in most rooms since 200 to 300 hz, but I am wondering what should be thhe targett of the bass curve when moddeling with (Vituix) whatever sealed or BR (SBB4 in mind if so) to have enough bass for most of the materials (40 hz low end very often).
Is there a minimal targett for the f3 f6 and f10 I should not go below for something not lacking bass according the rest of the (said) flat magnitude in the medium.
I have no way to measure my room gain by measuring outside and substract from the inside measurement to have my room gain curve. Another basic understanding from the Diya page is I should not care too much of the room gain below 100/150 hz and see it has a plus if existing and at the end just move the seat according the most pleasing pressure node (peak and null aka modes) ?
Guidance appreciated please
As an illustration, could you live with a f6 at 40 hz for instance ? Noway as I see it to make a 3 to 6 dB low end diving curve without DSP and bix Xmax drivers !
Hi @diyiggy,
I have no DSP, only a tiny dedicated auditorium that fortunately presents no significant sonic flaws...
My largest (DIY) speakers are a 3-Way BR using BEYMA speakers 12B100R / 8M60N / CP21F :
They offer a F3=36Hz, F6=29Hz, F10=25Hz, according to the calculator, which I find to be satisfactory in my little auditorium, and proved also convenient in larger rooms, as below, at a friend's home :
But it's me, OK ?
T
Did you ever EXPERIENCED a good room? Doesn't seem so - the difference is clear in seconds.
Of course does PRESSURE BASED bass absorption work near walls - there are not only porus absorbers. I also use BCA in my listening room - doesn't need a lot of space, works to get control at low frequencies. (BUT - it's not enough to defeat a room resonance completely!)
You can not EQ the chaotic behavior of a room at higher frequencies ... you can do some change of the "timbre" but your early reflections will do all sorts of bad stuff to imaging.
And a GOOD spectogram looks like that
If you measure the full audio bandwidth from your listening position you are doing it incorrectly. Use gated near-field measurements for higher frequencies and EQ those to address speaker resonances only. Read Toole or you will only continue down this path of irrelevant conflation to spread misinformation.
None of the above actually answers the OPs question.
I can only offer an opinion tho. IMO as low as possible and if the walls shake that's OK so long as the roof doesn't fall in.
16Hz would be what I would aim at if I could change the low cut in the Behringer to that I'd be happy, 25Hz is too high IME
I can only offer an opinion tho. IMO as low as possible and if the walls shake that's OK so long as the roof doesn't fall in.
16Hz would be what I would aim at if I could change the low cut in the Behringer to that I'd be happy, 25Hz is too high IME