Re: And there's another problem.
…or a human nature … or personal preferences… or all those things together?
There is no valid final answer Carlos because it would be doomed to be subjective!
destroyer X said:
…or a human nature … or personal preferences… or all those things together?
There is no valid final answer Carlos because it would be doomed to be subjective!
Yes dear Bora...it seems there's no answer
sadly.
here you can see a nice performance.... speakers and serious Japanese listeners....but where's the Orchestra to compare to be a reference?
You see.... selling the magic, not the fidelity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zZ3A5rpuBk
regards,
Carlos
sadly.
here you can see a nice performance.... speakers and serious Japanese listeners....but where's the Orchestra to compare to be a reference?
You see.... selling the magic, not the fidelity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zZ3A5rpuBk
regards,
Carlos
Last year i could see an interesting video into Youtube
Was a very expensive English speaker compared with something cheap but considered good.
Alive music was played and them reproduced in each of of those speakers.
The focus was speakers and not amplifiers...made sense to me, as speakers are the big problem.
I could not find to show you.... those testings give us some inputs to think about.
The budget speaker played almost the same in quality...the expensive was the winner..but both has lost to the real live music beeing played.
regards,
Carlos
Was a very expensive English speaker compared with something cheap but considered good.
Alive music was played and them reproduced in each of of those speakers.
The focus was speakers and not amplifiers...made sense to me, as speakers are the big problem.
I could not find to show you.... those testings give us some inputs to think about.
The budget speaker played almost the same in quality...the expensive was the winner..but both has lost to the real live music beeing played.
regards,
Carlos
Hello Carlos
For me the best amp will be close to the reallity of live concert.
Low distortion are important but musicality and 3D soundstage do give life to the music and bring it closer to live concert sound.
Some very good commercial amps do sound clean but sterile and you do not have any pleasure to listen them.
I agree with you that the Aksa amp are special, I would say it sound more alive and magic than lot of very costly commercial amps.
An amp should bring you the life of the music with a definition and soundstage who bring the musicians into your home.
Bye
Gaetan
For me the best amp will be close to the reallity of live concert.
Low distortion are important but musicality and 3D soundstage do give life to the music and bring it closer to live concert sound.
Some very good commercial amps do sound clean but sterile and you do not have any pleasure to listen them.
I agree with you that the Aksa amp are special, I would say it sound more alive and magic than lot of very costly commercial amps.
An amp should bring you the life of the music with a definition and soundstage who bring the musicians into your home.
Bye
Gaetan
best one is one that plays on your heart and feelings. The one that get you up from chair and makes you tap with foot and dance, and one that when you sit quietly and listen to some slow, classic tunes, it opens you ears to colours and tones in the song. One that makes your hair stand up because you "feel" music. That it is. A very difficult task, almost magical...and I think this word is better than reality. You listen with heart not brains.
Re: Last year i could see an interesting video into Youtube
Yes Carlos, that is the essence of the problem in today’s audio… speakers are the “narrow throat” and developments and achievements in that area didn’t keep the tempo with amplifiers and electronic area of audio realm.
I am encouraging you to continue your excellent work with amplifiers instead of wasting time with this, because it is futile debate that won’t enlighten you much.
destroyer X said:
Yes Carlos, that is the essence of the problem in today’s audio… speakers are the “narrow throat” and developments and achievements in that area didn’t keep the tempo with amplifiers and electronic area of audio realm.
I am encouraging you to continue your excellent work with amplifiers instead of wasting time with this, because it is futile debate that won’t enlighten you much.
If I can throw in my two cents from a more objective stand point of what I look for, Maximizing the signal to noise ratio at low signal levels.
At high signal levels typically the speakers become the biggest issue, creating the biggest issues with regard to non-linearities and such.
However, at lower signal levels, where really, a large amount of our listening takes place (the important first watt concept), I think the biggest problems exist in the amplifiers. It seems like most people pay very little attention to what is going on below 1 watt, what the signal to noise ratio looks like, distortion, etc. I find that "transparency" in an amplifier seems to be a function of just this, "cleanliness" in the area below 1 watt. If an amplifier can maintain suitably low distortion and noise, amplifiers seem to be able to be the most transparent.
I should pull out some measurements to maybe make my point a bit better, but here is the best "case in point" description I have. I have two amplifiers I built. One of them was from Anthony's Aussie Amps (NX150 modules with a very quiet CLC power supply). This amplifier had a very high signal to noise ratio when tested as normal, and extremely low distortion between 1 watt and it's 1% point of around 180 watts. However, due to the design, the amplifier's dominate "noise characteristic" was shot noise. Basically there was hiss, and this would "drown" out the very low level signals, leading to poor (relatively speaking) resolution and transparency. Increasing the bias voltage so that the first few watts was Class A did reduce distortion in the less than 1 watt area, but did nothing for shot noise.
My other two DIY amps which outperformed this also took advantage of high bias voltages to reduce the distortion in the first few watts. I'm not convinced that pure class A is necessary since I don't think switching noise is audible when the signal gets that high, as long as switching noise is non-existant within the first watt or two. However these amp designs also had much lower shot noise, and these blacker backgrounds seemed to improve the perception of transparency. I've not performed double blind testing to confirm with out a doubt that this is true. I know that there are a few others who have done similar testing and come to similar conclusions, so I have a feeling it may be the case even under stringent DBT conditions.
If I was to pick any one area to look at, objectively, it would be the amplifiers lack of noise and distortion. I think subjectively that this quietness leads to better staging, transparency, clarity, etc.
Beyond that, speakers still remain the number one area people should be focusing on. I'm not convinced that speakers have advanced to a point where greater focus on amplifiers and sources will net the biggest improvements.
At high signal levels typically the speakers become the biggest issue, creating the biggest issues with regard to non-linearities and such.
However, at lower signal levels, where really, a large amount of our listening takes place (the important first watt concept), I think the biggest problems exist in the amplifiers. It seems like most people pay very little attention to what is going on below 1 watt, what the signal to noise ratio looks like, distortion, etc. I find that "transparency" in an amplifier seems to be a function of just this, "cleanliness" in the area below 1 watt. If an amplifier can maintain suitably low distortion and noise, amplifiers seem to be able to be the most transparent.
I should pull out some measurements to maybe make my point a bit better, but here is the best "case in point" description I have. I have two amplifiers I built. One of them was from Anthony's Aussie Amps (NX150 modules with a very quiet CLC power supply). This amplifier had a very high signal to noise ratio when tested as normal, and extremely low distortion between 1 watt and it's 1% point of around 180 watts. However, due to the design, the amplifier's dominate "noise characteristic" was shot noise. Basically there was hiss, and this would "drown" out the very low level signals, leading to poor (relatively speaking) resolution and transparency. Increasing the bias voltage so that the first few watts was Class A did reduce distortion in the less than 1 watt area, but did nothing for shot noise.
My other two DIY amps which outperformed this also took advantage of high bias voltages to reduce the distortion in the first few watts. I'm not convinced that pure class A is necessary since I don't think switching noise is audible when the signal gets that high, as long as switching noise is non-existant within the first watt or two. However these amp designs also had much lower shot noise, and these blacker backgrounds seemed to improve the perception of transparency. I've not performed double blind testing to confirm with out a doubt that this is true. I know that there are a few others who have done similar testing and come to similar conclusions, so I have a feeling it may be the case even under stringent DBT conditions.
If I was to pick any one area to look at, objectively, it would be the amplifiers lack of noise and distortion. I think subjectively that this quietness leads to better staging, transparency, clarity, etc.
Beyond that, speakers still remain the number one area people should be focusing on. I'm not convinced that speakers have advanced to a point where greater focus on amplifiers and sources will net the biggest improvements.
I think this point is why Chip amps are so popular and can sound so good (when implemented correctly.) The transistors are very closely matched and as such noise and distortion at low signal levels is very low. However, the inability to run higher bias voltages makes this not my ideal choice. While I have various chip amps I have built, none of them are in use in my main system.
From my point of view, the best amplifier is one that:
- Produces an output signal that closely matches the input signal, within 0.1% or better.
- Has a low noise floor and is free from turn-on and turn-off noises.
- Produces as little heat as possible. Efficiency should be 90% or better.
- Is light weight. No 50/60Hz transformers. No big heatsinks.
- Is of small size. SMD. 2+ layer PCB. Daughter PCBs, no wasted space. No fancy huge cases.
- Is capable of limiting current to handle any load.
- Is capable of compressing input signal to protect speakers and itself.
BTW: I've just managed to pack something capable of 5000W burst on 2 ohms (1600W continuous) on 23cm x 15cm x 8cm. Single channel. No fans. A relatively new concept...
- Produces an output signal that closely matches the input signal, within 0.1% or better.
- Has a low noise floor and is free from turn-on and turn-off noises.
- Produces as little heat as possible. Efficiency should be 90% or better.
- Is light weight. No 50/60Hz transformers. No big heatsinks.
- Is of small size. SMD. 2+ layer PCB. Daughter PCBs, no wasted space. No fancy huge cases.
- Is capable of limiting current to handle any load.
- Is capable of compressing input signal to protect speakers and itself.
BTW: I've just managed to pack something capable of 5000W burst on 2 ohms (1600W continuous) on 23cm x 15cm x 8cm. Single channel. No fans. A relatively new concept...
It is lovely to read all those things...and i can agree with all of you
without any kind of exception.... all of you thinks the same as me, including Eva with her class D concept.
thank you Gaetan, Boraomega,T11,pjpoes and Eva by your nice attention and contribution.
But you see...no one is able to point me the one.
I hope, dear Eva, that next time you share your schematic with us...or at least, produce a simplified copy, with lower performance them your main amplifier, not only to publish, to share, as advertising, but as a cooperation with your buddies.
Not only the schematic but trying to reinforce our knowledge about Class D... explaining, step by step, the way the circuit works.
Please, let us know, publishing the link to the Class D into our solid state forum, as class D can be solid state too and some folks do not visit other foruns alike me.
You see... Steve Dunlap, i think, have not published the schematic he have used earlier with copyrigth...made something special for us i think (this makes sense to me)....of course more simple.
In my mind, Krill amplifier or the main Dunlap design should have an operational amplifier from output to input ...and maybe he had one there into his earlier amplifier used for business purposes.
You are the one, dear Eva, that can help us to understand more deeply the Class D operation, showing us some simplified schematic that will not bother your "copyrigth", but for sure will make your heart plenty of satisfaction to cooperate with your communitty.
regards,
Carlos
without any kind of exception.... all of you thinks the same as me, including Eva with her class D concept.
thank you Gaetan, Boraomega,T11,pjpoes and Eva by your nice attention and contribution.
But you see...no one is able to point me the one.
I hope, dear Eva, that next time you share your schematic with us...or at least, produce a simplified copy, with lower performance them your main amplifier, not only to publish, to share, as advertising, but as a cooperation with your buddies.
Not only the schematic but trying to reinforce our knowledge about Class D... explaining, step by step, the way the circuit works.
Please, let us know, publishing the link to the Class D into our solid state forum, as class D can be solid state too and some folks do not visit other foruns alike me.
You see... Steve Dunlap, i think, have not published the schematic he have used earlier with copyrigth...made something special for us i think (this makes sense to me)....of course more simple.
In my mind, Krill amplifier or the main Dunlap design should have an operational amplifier from output to input ...and maybe he had one there into his earlier amplifier used for business purposes.
You are the one, dear Eva, that can help us to understand more deeply the Class D operation, showing us some simplified schematic that will not bother your "copyrigth", but for sure will make your heart plenty of satisfaction to cooperate with your communitty.
regards,
Carlos
The best amplifier from a technical point of view, is the one best suited to its task. If you need an amplifier for civilized listening at home, it makes little sense to use one that can put out several kW, just as little as using class A amps for PA systems.
The best amplifier from a psychological point of view, is the one that satisfies its owner most. There are so many reasons, why an amplifier may do that. Some are related to sound, some to looks, some to technical data or properties, to price tag, brand name, others to being self-made. There are even people, who satisfy themselves more with the act of building, disarming and building again, than with the actual result, eh, Carlos?
The best amplifier in the world is always the next that you build (or buy).
The best amplifier from a psychological point of view, is the one that satisfies its owner most. There are so many reasons, why an amplifier may do that. Some are related to sound, some to looks, some to technical data or properties, to price tag, brand name, others to being self-made. There are even people, who satisfy themselves more with the act of building, disarming and building again, than with the actual result, eh, Carlos?
The best amplifier in the world is always the next that you build (or buy).
The next you gonna build.
This makes sense to me.
Also first watt.
Also designed customized to the task.
But you see dear Bluepacific.....no one points an amplifier.
This drives me happy... as i am not the only one that do not know, i am not the one to point...the ultimate amplifier...also no one could point....only generic evaluations...should be this way or that way..not one said.
This one!.... XXXXXX
There's one with a very respectable brand name... something Krueger.... this one would be a candidate...the name remembers me precision instruments.... alike Heuer and some other names.
If we could evaluate using names..that Krueger should be the best..nice name...XXXX Krueger.
Strong name... remembers Krieg ( figth or battle if i'mnot wrong).
Well...names say nothing....my Precision, despite very good...has not about precision...the High Resolution has not about audio resolution or definition.... was mine resolution to produce a better amplifier... well..... it seems no one knows.
Let the thread die..... no one can point me the best.
I cannot do that too...so...Bora is rigth...nothing to discuss anymore.
regards folks,
bye
Carlos
This makes sense to me.
Also first watt.
Also designed customized to the task.
But you see dear Bluepacific.....no one points an amplifier.
This drives me happy... as i am not the only one that do not know, i am not the one to point...the ultimate amplifier...also no one could point....only generic evaluations...should be this way or that way..not one said.
This one!.... XXXXXX
There's one with a very respectable brand name... something Krueger.... this one would be a candidate...the name remembers me precision instruments.... alike Heuer and some other names.
If we could evaluate using names..that Krueger should be the best..nice name...XXXX Krueger.
Strong name... remembers Krieg ( figth or battle if i'mnot wrong).
Well...names say nothing....my Precision, despite very good...has not about precision...the High Resolution has not about audio resolution or definition.... was mine resolution to produce a better amplifier... well..... it seems no one knows.
Let the thread die..... no one can point me the best.
I cannot do that too...so...Bora is rigth...nothing to discuss anymore.
regards folks,
bye
Carlos
Been fixin' amps for 23 years , but only 1 year of building them.
Not enough to make the most complete assessment yet ,but
good enough for the time being.
Interesting how a $7k amp compares to a $20 one..
The $7,000 amp filled the room with heat
, broke my
back with weight , and the case was so filled with devices, it was
hard to work on. It DID sound better , Abba - I have a dream -
was so clear and detailed that tears came to eyes.
The $20 amp is more silent with ear to speaker , runs cooler,
spilled alcoholic beverage on it .. burned OP device ,
replaced, worked for another 9 months. It sounds ALMOST
as good as the 7K amp , but I can leave it on all day without
baking the room.
3 Factors some ignore to determine a good amp are : board
layout/ component quality (will it last 20 years) , the "death
factor" (short out the OPS , HOW will it fry ? ) and of course,
ease of repair (fat pads / simple topology).
I see the ASKA mentioned many times around the forum as
the standard of fidelity ( the 20$ amp - FA1b). Amazing that
a simple 12 device amplifier can almost match a esoteric one costing thousands more.. 😱
I am so impressed by how the simple class AB bootstrap held
it's own against the overpriced "Classe A" behemoth that
I might make a 8 OP device "monster" version for my main amp.
OS
Not enough to make the most complete assessment yet ,but
good enough for the time being.
Interesting how a $7k amp compares to a $20 one..
The $7,000 amp filled the room with heat
, broke myback with weight , and the case was so filled with devices, it was
hard to work on. It DID sound better , Abba - I have a dream -
was so clear and detailed that tears came to eyes.
The $20 amp is more silent with ear to speaker , runs cooler,
spilled alcoholic beverage on it ..
burned OP device , replaced, worked for another 9 months. It sounds ALMOST
as good as the 7K amp , but I can leave it on all day without
baking the room.
3 Factors some ignore to determine a good amp are : board
layout/ component quality (will it last 20 years) , the "death
factor" (short out the OPS , HOW will it fry ? ) and of course,
ease of repair (fat pads / simple topology).
I see the ASKA mentioned many times around the forum as
the standard of fidelity ( the 20$ amp - FA1b). Amazing that
a simple 12 device amplifier can almost match a esoteric one costing thousands more.. 😱
I am so impressed by how the simple class AB bootstrap held
it's own against the overpriced "Classe A" behemoth that
I might make a 8 OP device "monster" version for my main amp.
OS
There's a lot of truth in that. I remember reading in Scientific American Mind magazine last year some recent research (which I can't find right now, I'm afraid), that showed that people who make tangible and enjoyable things with their hands were, overall, very happy. The particular areas of study, IIRC, were gardening and cookery. However, building amps clearly fits into this category.Mr Evil said:
I have noticed that since I started (recently) building my own amps, that I am listening to music a lot more, and enjoying it more - and that overall I'm happier and more energetic. I believe that this is related to the above research.
Yes folks...i do think the same..simple is good... the JLH philosophy i think
Those amplifiers can be understood as three stages only.... the differential understood as first stage.... VAS the second and the ouput darlington, the emitter follower alike the third.
If we believe/understand/feel that each part can disturb sound a little...the best option is to use simple things alike Nelson pass does...also John Lindsey (Lindsley?) Hood used to produce.... if we do not believe..for sure we gonna feel surprised how nice they can be...all JLH are nice, in special the old ones.... with single supply.
Simple... the most we can...use to sound very nice.... you see..i am listening and feeling good, my Trust unit... a hell old thing..not even a differential it has.... capacitor output coupled..something that "promisses" to be awfull.... the opposite...nice...very nice!
Send me this old amplifier you like Ostry....as i know you are skilled and also very sensitive to sound quality...i would like to know this one you have appreciated...brand, model and schematic to uncle, please.
panzertoo@yahoo.com
regards,
Carlos
Those amplifiers can be understood as three stages only.... the differential understood as first stage.... VAS the second and the ouput darlington, the emitter follower alike the third.
If we believe/understand/feel that each part can disturb sound a little...the best option is to use simple things alike Nelson pass does...also John Lindsey (Lindsley?) Hood used to produce.... if we do not believe..for sure we gonna feel surprised how nice they can be...all JLH are nice, in special the old ones.... with single supply.
Simple... the most we can...use to sound very nice.... you see..i am listening and feeling good, my Trust unit... a hell old thing..not even a differential it has.... capacitor output coupled..something that "promisses" to be awfull.... the opposite...nice...very nice!
Send me this old amplifier you like Ostry....as i know you are skilled and also very sensitive to sound quality...i would like to know this one you have appreciated...brand, model and schematic to uncle, please.
panzertoo@yahoo.com
regards,
Carlos
My frugal1 B is just like a aska55 , but with CCS , modern EF OPS.
it is in my frugalamp folder.. (FA1b)
just a standard DX with more power and LED CCS..
http://71.203.202.56/pdf1/Electronics/Projects/Audio_amp/Frugalamp/In%20development/FA1/
The old genesis stealth (class A - which does not sound muffled)
is in this thread..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46602
, had to return it to owner today! Schema...http://www.audio-circuit.dk/Schemat...lth-pwr-sch.pdf
A more detailed OP stage schema I had to make myself
on page 3 of the thread.
OS
The class D amplifier that I mention has no vodoo in it, it's just a careful implementation of many existing concepts with a good choice of components. It's just a self-oscillating full bridge. If you follow my posts in the class D forum you may find many hints here and there, but I'm not going to give all together in a single post. I don't like to be easily copied. I can't tell much about it because it's a commercial product for the live sound market that it's soon going to be released.
One of the projects that I have in mind is a compact 2x200W amplifier with SMPS, all in a single PCB. For this one I may release full schematics and PCB files once it's completed. I'm even considering offering it as a kit, but this will still take a few months.
One of the projects that I have in mind is a compact 2x200W amplifier with SMPS, all in a single PCB. For this one I may release full schematics and PCB files once it's completed. I'm even considering offering it as a kit, but this will still take a few months.
@Eva
Why are you using self-oscillating class D?
Is it because of the simplicity or is it because it performs better than a class D with fixed triangular frequency?
Why are you using self-oscillating class D?
Is it because of the simplicity or is it because it performs better than a class D with fixed triangular frequency?
Thank you Ostry....nice schematic...i think i have tried this way..sounded fine too
More agressive trebles if i can remember.... less audible distortion and interesting dinamics...... into measurement was not very good (mine one..the version i have assembled when researching the Dx Amplifier..trying to make different than Hugh did)
I have visited all links provided Ostripper..thank you.
...................................................................................
This is a pitty Eva.... if commercial into the near future you cannot provide schematic...i can understand that.... a pitty for us.
....................................................................................
regards,
Carlos
More agressive trebles if i can remember.... less audible distortion and interesting dinamics...... into measurement was not very good (mine one..the version i have assembled when researching the Dx Amplifier..trying to make different than Hugh did)
I have visited all links provided Ostripper..thank you.
...................................................................................
This is a pitty Eva.... if commercial into the near future you cannot provide schematic...i can understand that.... a pitty for us.
....................................................................................
regards,
Carlos
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