Some time ago, I was walking on a parking lot and heard music coming from the adjacent building 20 meters away. Its doors were open. What struck me, was that I could hear that the cymbals sounded like the real thing, without being able to see what made the sound. It turned out to be a dance organ. In a large, reverberant room.
For those who do not know what a dance organ is, it is awesome:
Now, I am curious why it was clear that a real instrument was playing and not a loudspeaker.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
For those who do not know what a dance organ is, it is awesome:
Now, I am curious why it was clear that a real instrument was playing and not a loudspeaker.
- Can it be related to an instrument being 'faster' than the same instrument, recorded and played back over a loudspeaker? I do not think this could explain it here, because there only was a mix of reflected sounds to hear.
- Can it be related to directivity pattern? I doubt it. There is no way to distinguish between different directions. All I knew was that sound was coming from some doors 20 meters away.
- Can it be the sound pressure level? Real cymbals are loud. But it was not that loud outside.
- Can it be the dynamics? Real instruments have no compression applied to them. Maybe?
- Can it be the spectral content of the sound? Being outside of the building, I must have heard the power response. Cymbals are quasi-omnidirectional over their full frequency range, while most loudspeakers beam at high frequencies and have a downward trend in their power response. But would not have it been altered to an unknown amount, by the room acoustics?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
I guess you just discovered that real instruments are the real deal. The reason that we struggle with loudspeakers and amps in our living rooms is that we can not all have a live band or orchestra in our home at our wish. We accept the lack of realness with the convenience of having music at hand any time. Unless you play piano or guitar or any other instrument at home. In past times there were only live instruments to entertain us....
Cymbals (for a trum kit) has a very wide spectrum content. Especially the lower range is surprising. For me, as an old drummer, it is when they got the proper body.
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I'm voting for that being at least part of the story. It's not just compression applied to the recording, but compression by the whole system. Very high peak sound pressure levels are possible for live cymbals, and most typical stereos are going to struggle to reproduce those faithfully. My AI friend says: "The sharp impact of a cymbal crash can generate instantaneous sound pressure levels that can approach 130–140 dB (at close range)."
I guess it's the relation to thermodynamics . I mean, the loudspeaker hardly goes over 1% efficiency in converting electricity to motion.
A musician, sweats.
The motor that pumps the air in that dance organ gets warm, so...
A musician, sweats.
The motor that pumps the air in that dance organ gets warm, so...
My guess is that all of those points contribute to the dilemma, perhaps at different levels. To those I would add imperfections with sound recording, mostly due to microphone limitations, and imperfections with sound reproduction, mostly due to speaker limitations.
As an example, a cymbal has a much larger radiating surface than a typical midrange or tweeter. With present technology it is hard to replicate that. Sure, you can use very large drivers, but at high frequencies they start to beam and experience cone breakup, the cone breakup adding colorations to the music signal.
Also, when recording with a microphone and reproducing with a speaker, there is doppler shift happening. Is it audible? I don't know. It would not surprise me if it has been scientifically studied but, if so, I have not seen the study.
I've always thought it was dynamic range... no recording nor loudspeaker can compare to the real thing. It's why live music is always immediately recognizable as such, even amplified live music.
My son play drum, and I agree that hiting a crash or a snare drum have insane Dynamic.
This can clearly be reproduce.
I see 2 major issues in today life:
1) SPL: with tiny stéréo stuff, you can't have enough Dynamic.
2) recording compression and balance of drums. Cymbales are a lot attenuate.
If I tune m'y speakers to have a "live" drum, vocals become harsh
(By the way I'm pretty sure that 2 is because of 1 )
But, didn't you saw that ? in a concert, a cymbal sounds like a cymbal eventhaugh they are amplified ?
Take a good 15+8+1 or CD, a good LIVE record ( sara k live in concert, patricia barber live in paris) put the volume a lot more high than you would normaly do and you can be surprised ...
This can clearly be reproduce.
I see 2 major issues in today life:
1) SPL: with tiny stéréo stuff, you can't have enough Dynamic.
2) recording compression and balance of drums. Cymbales are a lot attenuate.
If I tune m'y speakers to have a "live" drum, vocals become harsh
(By the way I'm pretty sure that 2 is because of 1 )
But, didn't you saw that ? in a concert, a cymbal sounds like a cymbal eventhaugh they are amplified ?
Take a good 15+8+1 or CD, a good LIVE record ( sara k live in concert, patricia barber live in paris) put the volume a lot more high than you would normaly do and you can be surprised ...
Real instrument is really a stunning listening experience.
I grew up listening to an Yamaha Grand piano my father used to play and I played drums in teenager time.
1) I think the way the sound is produced matters, since real instruments are 3D objects that create sounds in all directions, totally different from speakers.
2) The most of modern recordings, unfortunatelly, no longer have the goal of reproducing sounds - there are some rare exceptions in classic and jazz.
Up until 70's, most of studios made all effort to go hi-fi, trying to reproduce real instruments as good as possible.
In the 80's we started to have electronic music and all the horrendous signal processors that instead of reproducing sounds their goal are to "produce" sounds.
If you stay some minutes in any modern studio, the most spoken word will be "compressor" and "sound processor".
Around 40 years have passed without any progress in real instrument reproduction when we talk about popular music - I know there are good samples for audiophiles, but I'm talking about listening to regular popular music.
In the digital era, where we can have more than 100dB of headroom, most modern records fit in a regular 70's k7 tape.
Power, dynamics, frequency response is no longer an issue, but most of people (not us) don't like it.
Humans are difficult to understand.
I grew up listening to an Yamaha Grand piano my father used to play and I played drums in teenager time.
1) I think the way the sound is produced matters, since real instruments are 3D objects that create sounds in all directions, totally different from speakers.
2) The most of modern recordings, unfortunatelly, no longer have the goal of reproducing sounds - there are some rare exceptions in classic and jazz.
Up until 70's, most of studios made all effort to go hi-fi, trying to reproduce real instruments as good as possible.
In the 80's we started to have electronic music and all the horrendous signal processors that instead of reproducing sounds their goal are to "produce" sounds.
If you stay some minutes in any modern studio, the most spoken word will be "compressor" and "sound processor".
Around 40 years have passed without any progress in real instrument reproduction when we talk about popular music - I know there are good samples for audiophiles, but I'm talking about listening to regular popular music.
In the digital era, where we can have more than 100dB of headroom, most modern records fit in a regular 70's k7 tape.
Power, dynamics, frequency response is no longer an issue, but most of people (not us) don't like it.
Humans are difficult to understand.
My local hifi shop stop to sell JBL.
He told me that almost no body was buying it because it was too Dynamic and got listening fatigue.🤯
What the hell ! How can a speaker be too Dynamic !
I'm going to say the baffle step.
The lowest cymbal frequencies, the tactile feel to them is rarely done well.
Before blaming the dynamics, get this region right.
The lowest cymbal frequencies, the tactile feel to them is rarely done well.
Before blaming the dynamics, get this region right.
as there's no way to record cymbals without compression being involved the missing dynamic range and the modified response are the biggest give away why there's no mistaking between the two.
as a live soundman i've often questioned the reasons and common practice of miking cymbals at all...
as a live soundman i've often questioned the reasons and common practice of miking cymbals at all...
It's like said a very dynamic instrument with a wide frequency range. So you need a speaker with a lot of headroom and a flat time and phase aligned response that is free of distortion.The best i heared was on a big JBL M2 setup with modified (different dsp and amps) electronics in a good (acoustic) space tuned by a specialist. Amps were Ncore based, dsp was a MiniDSP Flex 8 and the room was acousticly treated like a mastering room. The goal was to have an as neutral sound as possible, so the dsp is not tuned like JBL (Harman) does in their Crown amps, but redone and with DIRAC room correction. So clean neutral monitor sound but with a lot of headroom to catch the transients undistorted.
The owner is a musician (classic and jazz) and often record there also, altough it's primary function is a music listeing room.
The owner is a musician (classic and jazz) and often record there also, altough it's primary function is a music listeing room.
so waxx would you say that, that rig was so real you wouldn't be able to tell it from the real thing?
My long-ago girlfriend had her drum kit in the living room.
Cymbals can be played softly, and yet they still sound different.
I think the output not stopping at 20KHz is the reason.
Another reason is that the power radiated into the room by most speakers is far from flat.
Ed
Cymbals can be played softly, and yet they still sound different.
I think the output not stopping at 20KHz is the reason.
Another reason is that the power radiated into the room by most speakers is far from flat.
Ed
Recorded cymbals can sound pretty close to the real thing. In many systems cymbals sound all about the same and maybe even like bursts of random noise. You may not hear much of the ping of the stick attack either. Jazz music without much compression may a good source of clean cymbal sounds for test purposes.
IME, like some other problems it can start with the dac. IME, clock jitter can be a significant issue with some dac architectures when trying to reproduce cymbal sounds accurately.
The above applies even with headphones. Then with speakers in a room of course room treatment and good speakers can make a big difference.
IME, like some other problems it can start with the dac. IME, clock jitter can be a significant issue with some dac architectures when trying to reproduce cymbal sounds accurately.
The above applies even with headphones. Then with speakers in a room of course room treatment and good speakers can make a big difference.
Here we are...15 inch with CD ...
I am always mixed with this "acousticaly treated room" with super dsp correction and blabla.
If I play a cymbal in my living room, bedroom or bathroom, it always sound like a cymbal. When my wife speak inside the bathroom, bedroom or living room. It's the same.
If the reproduction of the sound is accurate, I don't see why it would be different in a super or badly treated room.
Not only are cymbals quasi-omnidirectional, their patterns of peaks and nulls are radiated in different directions that shift during the time envelope of each strike.
Although loudspeakers can be capable of near exact reproduction of the dynamic range and spectral content of a cymbal as picked up by microphones, there are none that can reproduce it's shifting spectral directivity pattern, and how that affects it's direct or reverberant sonic radiation signature.
Even when listening to live cymbals out doors, their shifting pattern makes them instantly recognizable from any loudspeaker, until a reinforcement speaker system is loud enough to mask those cues.
Art