For rock and heavy metal, I prefer speakers with lots of Sd in the range what is called "Grundton" in german. Sorry, I don't know what the english term is. It is the range between the mids and bass. perhaps 100-600Hz. IMHO thats the where the music is gonna kick your *** 
lots of Sd leads to a speaker with 4 ways:
lots of Sd leads to a speaker with 4 ways:An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
uh. seems, I didn't mange to put in the pic corrctly. well here it is:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
"I can't imagine buying a consumer speaker ever again, though."
Neither can I.
"Maybe even done it ourselves when we were young (heh!)."
Yup, that was me with my Monsoon PC speakers ohh yeah, now they are set for 'perfect flat', never heard such great sound b4...Until, I finish my dipoles (Pheonix inspired).
Neither can I.
"Maybe even done it ourselves when we were young (heh!)."
Yup, that was me with my Monsoon PC speakers ohh yeah, now they are set for 'perfect flat', never heard such great sound b4...Until, I finish my dipoles (Pheonix inspired).
Re: "But it goes to 11..." - Spinal Tap
Pinkmouse: Honestly, I was trying to say that the mids are indeed what distinguishes a good speaker, DIY or consumer, from the mass-market type. It could be my humble source equipment, but some speakers sound well balanced at moderate volumes, but at party levels, the mids 'bloom' (to use the video wording) or are 'blairey' (to use a term I saw on PE). On my previous 'rockin' speakers, I would sometimes have to actually crank the bass and treble knobs (ooh, sorry) on my receiver to try and get rid of that fingernails on a chalkboard feeling on some heavy tunes.
Of course, source material, source components, volume levels and personal hearing probably have more of an effect. But recently, I've noted that the speaker I have DIY'd get loud enough to be uncomfortable before the mids seem to shriek. But the middle octaves are definitely there, quite clear and clean and throughout the whole volume range. And that is what has made the music sound more like music instead of just sounds.
I can't wait to get other projects done and the funds to do a mid-grade DIY speaker. All of my projects thus far definitely fall into the budget category. And my B&W's are in the garage, as that's where they currently fall in the food chain of sound. . .
Best of luck with your next choice of projects, Leadbelly!
Sandy.
purplepeople said:
Pinkmouse: Honestly, I was trying to say that the mids are indeed what distinguishes a good speaker, DIY or consumer, from the mass-market type. It could be my humble source equipment, but some speakers sound well balanced at moderate volumes, but at party levels, the mids 'bloom' (to use the video wording) or are 'blairey' (to use a term I saw on PE). On my previous 'rockin' speakers, I would sometimes have to actually crank the bass and treble knobs (ooh, sorry) on my receiver to try and get rid of that fingernails on a chalkboard feeling on some heavy tunes.
Of course, source material, source components, volume levels and personal hearing probably have more of an effect. But recently, I've noted that the speaker I have DIY'd get loud enough to be uncomfortable before the mids seem to shriek. But the middle octaves are definitely there, quite clear and clean and throughout the whole volume range. And that is what has made the music sound more like music instead of just sounds.
I can't wait to get other projects done and the funds to do a mid-grade DIY speaker. All of my projects thus far definitely fall into the budget category. And my B&W's are in the garage, as that's where they currently fall in the food chain of sound. . .
Best of luck with your next choice of projects, Leadbelly!
Sandy.
Re: Re: Re: "But it goes to 11..." - Spinal Tap
Doh! (-Homer Simpson)
Sorry from the confusion. I read a thread earlier where pinkmouse made a comment and must have kept that in my head!
Pinkmouse
: Glad you agree. . . uhh, I'll try not to speak for you in the future! 
purplepeople: Credit goes to you for the comment (and for the Spinal Tap reference
) which I was discussing. Sorry for the confusion, but at least it was a good guy I confused you with! Heck, maybe I'll read a post from Nelson Pass 
prior to responding next time. . .
Sorry for the confusion!
Sandy.
pinkmouse said:
Yes, I agree completely. But how do you know, as I just got back from the pub, and never actually expressed an opinion in this thread?
purplepeople said:purplepeople is beet red from the flattering comparison with pinkmouse.
Doh! (-Homer Simpson)
Sorry from the confusion. I read a thread earlier where pinkmouse made a comment and must have kept that in my head!
Pinkmouse
: Glad you agree. . . uhh, I'll try not to speak for you in the future! purplepeople: Credit goes to you for the comment (and for the Spinal Tap reference
) which I was discussing. Sorry for the confusion, but at least it was a good guy I confused you with! Heck, maybe I'll read a post from Nelson Pass prior to responding next time. . . Sorry for the confusion!
Sandy.
Well, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I don't think subs are really required for Rock music
In my experience, Rock is mixed for the mids, i.e. vocals and guitar, and the low end isn't really that low, it is mixed more for punch, to cut through the mix. I suspect that anything below about 40Hz will be minimal.
Now I know you're all going to pull out specific records to deny this, and yes, they are around, Pink Floyd come to mind as an exception, but take a listen to the vast majority of albums and I think you will be suprised!
pm/waiting to be flamed
In my experience, Rock is mixed for the mids, i.e. vocals and guitar, and the low end isn't really that low, it is mixed more for punch, to cut through the mix. I suspect that anything below about 40Hz will be minimal.
Now I know you're all going to pull out specific records to deny this, and yes, they are around, Pink Floyd come to mind as an exception, but take a listen to the vast majority of albums and I think you will be suprised!
pm/waiting to be flamed
Banned
Joined 2002
What are these speakers going to be mainly for. If i were you i would maybe uild a pair of towers and build a subwoofer into them. I did that long time ago and loved them alot.. ill be building another pair again. ; O)
if you want to see speakers let me know. ill post my pic's on my gallery and give you the link.
if you want to see speakers let me know. ill post my pic's on my gallery and give you the link.
Not jumping on the gas truck
Actually, Pinkster, I'm not going to start throwing flames. I've got an extinguisher pointed in your general direction!!!
I'm going to 'tend' to agree with your statement that most rock is more bass punchy instead of bass heavy. As you said, there are many examples to prove the opposite, but much of the music I am thinking of is more focused on the mid/high octaves.
Leadbelly: If you have given up on the search for the perfect speaker, then I understand. However, you might *consider* trying what you think is a good compromise first without subs and add later if you so choose.
My experience (with consumer grade equipment at the time) was that subs tended to cover up the shortfallings of low-end speakers with a very fat/floppy boom. At the time, I was using Infinity mains cut off at 80Hz in the receiver (to 'save power' in my mind at the time) and a pair of Velodyne 12" subs to put the low end back. Result was concert like overhung boom with obscured mids and window rattling notes on occasion, but that was IMHO just room modes excited by a kick drum or bass note through an overly loud pair of subs.
Pending your budget, is it worth throwing together a mid-level DIY that might somewhat meet your criteria just to know? I built the D3 (no comments, please. I enjoy them right now even though some don't and I accept the arguments as to why) and find them surprising and refreshing, simply due to what the CAN do instead of what they CAN'T. If you are like me, even a non-perfect set of speakers can find good function for the patio, garage, guestroom or in a sonically challenged friend's house.
If there were a perfect rock speaker, then the forum would constantly be abuzz with listener results, but tunes differ (Korn or Stevie Ray Vaughn? Metallica or Neil Young? etc.) and ears definitely differ.
To add at least a suggestion to this diatribe in trying to give a little from my limited experience, if I chose to build a smaller 2-way for my mains and use a sub to augment the lows, I would (at this time) build a smaller (8-10") sub and would likely make it sealed, gambling that the low end rolloff compromise would be outweighed by the staccato punch, which suits much of my listening, yet not all. Previously having a pair of vented 12" subs operating in stereo, I found they tend to cancel each other out at times and build on each other too much at others. Of course, this is a solvable problem, just not at my current level of acoustic understanding (standing waves/positioning, I'm sure).
I personally think that many of the on-line reviews of 'speakers with weak mids' are somewhat unfair, as the mids might be weak from an audiophile perspective, most likely, not a consumer grade level for sure. The D3's are reputed to have 'weak, terrible or bad' mids (not my words. . . ) but all of my friends say how clear and focused they are. It's all perspective. Who knows, in 10 years, I might make the same argument, but today, I find them better than what I had before.
Lastly (in an apparently too long response) I apologize if my comments are too low brow for your experience. I am not familiar with your listening history (Martin Logan, DIY or Sony 3 for $5) with regard to speakers. I make no assumption as to what you know, just what I've learned $x thousand dollars later. . .
Good luck!
Sandy.
Actually, Pinkster, I'm not going to start throwing flames. I've got an extinguisher pointed in your general direction!!!
I'm going to 'tend' to agree with your statement that most rock is more bass punchy instead of bass heavy. As you said, there are many examples to prove the opposite, but much of the music I am thinking of is more focused on the mid/high octaves.
Leadbelly: If you have given up on the search for the perfect speaker, then I understand. However, you might *consider* trying what you think is a good compromise first without subs and add later if you so choose.
My experience (with consumer grade equipment at the time) was that subs tended to cover up the shortfallings of low-end speakers with a very fat/floppy boom. At the time, I was using Infinity mains cut off at 80Hz in the receiver (to 'save power' in my mind at the time) and a pair of Velodyne 12" subs to put the low end back. Result was concert like overhung boom with obscured mids and window rattling notes on occasion, but that was IMHO just room modes excited by a kick drum or bass note through an overly loud pair of subs.
Pending your budget, is it worth throwing together a mid-level DIY that might somewhat meet your criteria just to know? I built the D3 (no comments, please. I enjoy them right now even though some don't and I accept the arguments as to why) and find them surprising and refreshing, simply due to what the CAN do instead of what they CAN'T. If you are like me, even a non-perfect set of speakers can find good function for the patio, garage, guestroom or in a sonically challenged friend's house.
If there were a perfect rock speaker, then the forum would constantly be abuzz with listener results, but tunes differ (Korn or Stevie Ray Vaughn? Metallica or Neil Young? etc.) and ears definitely differ.
To add at least a suggestion to this diatribe in trying to give a little from my limited experience, if I chose to build a smaller 2-way for my mains and use a sub to augment the lows, I would (at this time) build a smaller (8-10") sub and would likely make it sealed, gambling that the low end rolloff compromise would be outweighed by the staccato punch, which suits much of my listening, yet not all. Previously having a pair of vented 12" subs operating in stereo, I found they tend to cancel each other out at times and build on each other too much at others. Of course, this is a solvable problem, just not at my current level of acoustic understanding (standing waves/positioning, I'm sure).
I personally think that many of the on-line reviews of 'speakers with weak mids' are somewhat unfair, as the mids might be weak from an audiophile perspective, most likely, not a consumer grade level for sure. The D3's are reputed to have 'weak, terrible or bad' mids (not my words. . . ) but all of my friends say how clear and focused they are. It's all perspective. Who knows, in 10 years, I might make the same argument, but today, I find them better than what I had before.
Lastly (in an apparently too long response) I apologize if my comments are too low brow for your experience. I am not familiar with your listening history (Martin Logan, DIY or Sony 3 for $5) with regard to speakers. I make no assumption as to what you know, just what I've learned $x thousand dollars later. . .
Good luck!
Sandy.
Banned
Joined 2002
Here is the link to my first towers. that i built with a 10" sub a 6.5" midbass and a Car tweeter. 1"
http://h24-69-72-2.ca.shawcable.net/photo/view_album.php?set_albumName=album01
This link is a pair of towers i buillt with some older drivers that my friend had laying around. same config but useing audax 6.5" driver and a kenwood 10" tornado in each tower and titanium 1" tweeter. These were loud.
http://h24-69-72-2.ca.shawcable.net/photo/view_album.php?set_albumName=album03
http://h24-69-72-2.ca.shawcable.net/photo/view_album.php?set_albumName=album01
This link is a pair of towers i buillt with some older drivers that my friend had laying around. same config but useing audax 6.5" driver and a kenwood 10" tornado in each tower and titanium 1" tweeter. These were loud.
http://h24-69-72-2.ca.shawcable.net/photo/view_album.php?set_albumName=album03
OT: Cool, Jason
I think the trim on your friend's towers is pretty cool. Its an interesting option while the sonic purists, I'm sure, would rip you a new one! I'd rather be brow beaten by an audiophile than a girlfriend/wife, though. . .
Also, are those Dale's driver boards in your Aleph 2 gallery? I have a pair and need to get the mosfet boards for mine. Are those sinks safe for a 2, though? Mine appear bigger and I'm still scared. I hope to get mine done late winter, so if you're there before, let us know about the heat!
Sandy.
I think the trim on your friend's towers is pretty cool. Its an interesting option while the sonic purists, I'm sure, would rip you a new one! I'd rather be brow beaten by an audiophile than a girlfriend/wife, though. . .
Also, are those Dale's driver boards in your Aleph 2 gallery? I have a pair and need to get the mosfet boards for mine. Are those sinks safe for a 2, though? Mine appear bigger and I'm still scared. I hope to get mine done late winter, so if you're there before, let us know about the heat!
Sandy.
Banned
Joined 2002
well im moving AGAin i think to my new job then ill be able to buy the parts to finnish my aleph 2.s there are 4 heat sinks per mono block 3 fets per one. i think it should be just fine. i'm going to put a small fan in the bottom maybe to move the air around inside. The boards are from dale. Im looking at a few new designs for my new speakers that i want to build using the Jordan 7" driver and some nice Ribbon Tweeters. dave might help me .. I hope : o ) But first a server. : O )
Don't use the word 'flames' around me, I'm here in British Columbia.
Luckily, though, I'm in the city so there is no immediate danger. Still, those of you in the affected areas, you have my best wishes. Years ago, I drove through an area about a day after it was roasted by forest fire and let me tell you, I don't wish that on anybody.
I alway thought that good speakers are good speakers, regardless of the sounds they have to play. My tastes are extremely wide so if the speakers can't play rock, metal, blues, jazz, soul, funk, pop, disco, electronica, classical and DVD movies, then they aren't for me. This is why I almost always lose interest when the salespeople tell me that XX speaker is good for YY music. It's why I don't like the ESLs, regardless of what praise they get. Not enough thump when it's required.
I really don't think you can go wrong if you build/buy a good monitor with fairly flat response and extension to 60Hz or lower. The size of the room will dictate the needed SPL and thus the number of drivers.
I just used my Yorkville studio monitors for PA work twice in the past 2 weeks. The first time at my office picnic complete with mic'ed voice and the second in a parade for music. They needed a bit of sub to support the low end, but had the SPLs and clarity for it. They are now back in my house as the mains to my stereo/HT and the sub only get's power when I'm watching DVD.
I wonder what Alan Parsons uses in his house, workshop, studio, office and car...
Luckily, though, I'm in the city so there is no immediate danger. Still, those of you in the affected areas, you have my best wishes. Years ago, I drove through an area about a day after it was roasted by forest fire and let me tell you, I don't wish that on anybody.
leadbelly said:
Er....listening to rock music...
I alway thought that good speakers are good speakers, regardless of the sounds they have to play. My tastes are extremely wide so if the speakers can't play rock, metal, blues, jazz, soul, funk, pop, disco, electronica, classical and DVD movies, then they aren't for me. This is why I almost always lose interest when the salespeople tell me that XX speaker is good for YY music. It's why I don't like the ESLs, regardless of what praise they get. Not enough thump when it's required.
I really don't think you can go wrong if you build/buy a good monitor with fairly flat response and extension to 60Hz or lower. The size of the room will dictate the needed SPL and thus the number of drivers.
I just used my Yorkville studio monitors for PA work twice in the past 2 weeks. The first time at my office picnic complete with mic'ed voice and the second in a parade for music. They needed a bit of sub to support the low end, but had the SPLs and clarity for it. They are now back in my house as the mains to my stereo/HT and the sub only get's power when I'm watching DVD.
I wonder what Alan Parsons uses in his house, workshop, studio, office and car...
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