What is the Universe expanding into..

[lcsaszar]

Referring to the initial question: What is the Universe expanding into...

Cosmologists say the size of the Universe can be concluded from the most distant objects that are some 13.5 billion lightyears from us. So they say, the age of the Universe is 13.5 billion years.

I have two questions:

1. Who said we are in the centre of the Universe? If we consider the most distant object in one direction, and the most distant object at 180° opposite direction, they must be 27 billion lightyears apart from each other? Or they are on the surface of a sphere? Is there any other model that explains it?

2. If the light from the most distant objects took 13.5 billion years to get to us, AND the Big Bang happened 13.5 billion years ago, those objects were initially at a singular point, as I understand the Big Bang theory. But how much time did they need to travel to their current position? 13.5 billion years? Then they must have travelled with light speed? If they traveled at lower speed then it must have needed more time, so they age must be more that 13.5 billion years? I see some contradiction here, but perhaps my logic fails.

 

[kevinahcc20]

The expansion of the Universe is not motion in an inertial frame of reference and it is not constrained by the rules of the Special and General Relativity limits on velocity. The "motion" of objects moving apart in an expanding Universe is not inertial motion, rather it is apparent motion from the expansion of spacetime. The Universe has no center or edges as the curvature of spacetime resulting from the mass of the Universe precludes one from travelling "out toward the edges" as straight lines do not go there. Ordinary frame of reference thoughts about these issues are embedded in Newtonian mechanics which do not conform to the large scale behavior of the Universe.

 

[lcsaszar]

Thanks Kevin. It is difficult to break out of conventional frames of thinking indeed. There are some inaccuracies in my previous post, and my questions do not seem valid.
The variable speed of light theory is quite appealig.

 

[Galu]

We are used to thinking about how 'space' works, but comprehending how 'spacetime' works is another matter entirely!

 

[system7]

I haven't given up on the Physics at all. Just decided that Marcus du Sautoy occasionally writes a bad book... gave up on it.

My mirror-symmetry experiment is far more interesting, IMO: Neutron - Wikipedia

Having a far better time with Sean Carroll on the Higgs Boson.

One of my favourite images:

Thing is, the sphere is actually a 2-D surface embedded in 3-D space. This is counter-intuitive. For things like electron spin, you need a 3-D surface embedded in 4-D.

All I can tell you is it works. Severe problems with the Standard Model. And multi-dimensional String Theory is getting a bit vague too.

Here's where I have got too with the Higgs Boson. It's about 125 times more massive than even a Neutron. But really it's the much smoother Higgs Field that does the work on mass, not the rare huge quantum particle which the LHC picked up.

We probably haven't thought about Relativity enough. Seems everywhere you look, you look back in time to a red-shifted earlier Universe. Must be because the fast early stuff is just disappeared over the Horizon..

 

[Galu]

One of my favourite images:

I'll scream if you post that again!

 

[Think]

The concept of space and time as the basis for reality (materialism) is proven wrong. It is consciousness. (idealism)
This changes our view on what space or the uni-verse (one-song) is.

1 consciousness getting conscious of itself by having a dualistic experience in time. The physical world is the representation of consciousness. (or mind)
CON (manipulate, control) - SCIOUS (having KNOWledge, science)- NESS (state, condition, quality, degree)

Bernardo Kastrup's Small Theory of Everything - YouTube Metaphysical Speculations
Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - YouTube
Digital Physics Meets Idealism: The Mental Universe - YouTube

Now you know you are a spiritual being, having a physical experience.
You now know what you are, why you are here and that we are all one. It is up to you to exercise your free will; you are observer and creator of, and participant, in consciousness. input => you => output = input

Then the start of this universe/song is something like God or mother nature started a dream or a computer game (the sims+ sim city in a super advanced form) started.

So the universe expands in consciousness is probably as much as we can know.

 

[Galu]

Then the start of this universe/song is something like God or mother nature started a dream or a computer game.

Even esteemed physicist Steven Hawking considered that a God could have decided the initial starting conditions for the universe.

For centuries, it was believed that disabled people like me were living under a curse that was inflicted by God. Well, I suppose it’s possible that I’ve upset someone up there, but I prefer to think that everything can be explained another way, by the laws of nature. If you believe in science, like I do, you believe that there are certain laws that are always obeyed. If you like, you can say the laws are the work of God, but that is more a definition of God than a proof of his existence.

 

[kevinahcc20]

The concept of space and time as the basis for reality (materialism) is proven wrong.

Please share the proof, it must involve complex mathematics!

 

[system7]

The expansion of the Universe is not motion in an inertial frame of reference and it is not constrained by the rules of the Special and General Relativity limits on velocity. The "motion" of objects moving apart in an expanding Universe is not inertial motion, rather it is apparent motion from the expansion of spacetime.

The Universe has no center or edges as the curvature of spacetime resulting from the mass of the Universe precludes one from travelling "out toward the edges" as straight lines do not go there. Ordinary frame of reference thoughts about these issues are embedded in Newtonian mechanics which do not conform to the large scale behavior of the Universe.

In a fast moving thread like this, one can often overllook remarkable contributions to Man and Womankind's vague understanding of Life, the Universe and Everything...

This thread is a treasure, IMO. Many images that I will inflict on you in the future.

I think the thing we monkeys find difficult is ROTATION. Or SPIN.

It looks wildly different in four dimensions:

But I have figured out how to build a Flying Saucer:

Levitron -- Spin stabilized magnetic levitation

Question for Kevin. If Space-Time is the main field, why do we add the Electromagnetic, Strong Field and Weak field and Higgs Field into the equation? It's like having 5 different sheets on your bed. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[kevinahcc20]

The way that I think about your question is that spacetime is the stage upon which the various fields, forces and particles act out their roles. That being said it seems clear that spacetime isn't necessarily fundamental, in other words that spacetime devoid of the forces and fields and particularly the matter that occupies it has any context. It seems rather to be a "package deal" where taking the players off the stage may well cause it to no longer exist as a stage. I'm rather an old man now, born before Einstein left this stage and I've come to accept that at some level of abstraction our comprehension of these things will always be incomplete...maybe it actually is "turtles all the way down..."

 

[Galu]

Cosmologists say the size of the Universe can be concluded from the most distant objects that are some 13.5 billion lightyears from us. Who said we are in the centre of the Universe?

The observable universe is a spherical volume centered on the observer, regardless of the shape of the universe as a whole. Every place in the universe has its own observable universe, which may or may not overlap with the one centered on Earth.

Light from galaxies in the universe beyond our observable universe has not yet had time to reach us, and its journey time is made even longer by the expansion of space. There's more of the same beyond our observable universe, we simply can't see it and no one knows how far it stretches.

 

[system7]

Can I suggest we all take a furlough from all speculations about the Universe, right now?

I just installed the World's most unsafe Operating System, aka Windows 10.

Why? Because I want to watch SpaceX launch tonight to the Space Station. My Ubuntu Linux declines all the Codecs of mass observation.

Imagine my horror at watching these Astronauts getting ready for Lift-Off. Surrounded by operatives wearing face-masks.

Quite honestly, if I was aboard the Space-Station, I would not let these possibly Covid-19 infected monkeys aboard.

Call me crazy: What Astronauts Can Teach Us about Mental Health and Isolation | The Walrus

But I'd rather be a live monkey, than a dead one.

 

[Galu]

Can I suggest we all take a furlough from all speculations about the Universe, right now?

You can suggest it!

 

[system7]

I am gripped, so far. The two guys on the SpaceX module/podule/thingy are what is called "Test Pilots."

This means they are on a voyage into the unknown. And trained to deal with it.

So far, everything is "kinda cool" or whatever hip words you young people use to describe these things. More objectively, the weather is about 50:50 at Cape Canaveral/Kennedy.

TBH, I am still concerned about the Covid-19 virus here. I don't know how you "Social Distance" on an International Space Station.

Even the common cold wrought havoc to the Apollo 7 mission:

In 1968, the Apollo 7 crew experienced such uncomfortable conditions, including dealing with bad colds onboard, that they dismissed requests from ground control and even refused to wear helmets during the dangerous phase of reentering Earth’s atmosphere; the astronauts were not allowed to fly again.

Anyway, we hope and pray for these brave men.

 

[Disco-Pete]

you guys busy tomorrow 3pm?

 

[system7]

Is that when the Dragon crew reach the International Space Station?

I am actually re-evaluating things. Doug and Bob may be the last humans to survive the wretched virus. Safer in Space than on the beaches in Dorset: Durdle Door: Three seriously hurt 'jumping off cliff into sea' - BBC News

Don't see much "Social Distancing" there.

 

[kevinahcc20]

Hmm. is anyone else a bit disappointed that, aside from the reusable launcher and fancier spacesuits the motive technology of manned spaceflight is right back where it was on May 5, 1961 when Alan Shepard rode a Mercury capsule atop a Redstone booster on a suborbital 15 minute flight. That's almost exactly 59 years ago! It's like you took an airplane trip in 1962 in a fancied up Wright Flyer or drove across country in 1960 in a slightly updated Curved Dash 1901 Oldsmobile.

 

[benb]

Oh, no, we've advanced so much more! Instead of the mechanical switches and pushbuttons of Mercury/Gemini/Apollo, the Spacex Crew Dragon has touchscreens! #whatcouldgowrong

But yeah, from my time in high school, I thought for a moment there would be a time period where all cars would have those Wankel rotary engines before finally converting to the 21st Century norm of all-electric.

 

[system7]

No. I was on the edge of my seat tonight. So were the youngsters in my family!

And you forget that Alan Shephard was not the first guy in Space. It was Russian Yuri Gagarin in nothing more than a glorified diving bell! The Soviets followed this up with the first woman in Space, the splendid Valentina Tereshkova.

We all felt sorry for the first Dog in Space, Laika, IIRC. Never made it back.

And wasn't there a terrible fire on Apollo One which killed Gus Grissom, White and Chaffee?

I thought SpaceX did tremendously well tonight in making it all look easy. This is what true professionals do.

Back in 1970, most people thought the money was better spent on dull things like hospitals and schools. Still do. But me, I can dream. "Per Ardua, ad Astra"