Surely this depends on the type of amplifier? An amplifier operating in class A doesn't see anything particularly special about the zero point. Distortion then tends to become smaller, rather than larger, as the amplitude reduces. (Essentially, only the leading-order (linear) term in the Taylor expansion survives as the amplitude goes to zero.)
I'm not sure I see the logic here. Could you elaborate on why you are saying this? A priori, one might expect the "2nd order behaviour of the microphone diaphram" to scale down proportionally with the signal.GoatGuy;3597329 Moreover said:
Chris
Umm...marketing?
(Though it's worth noting that a double-blind test in the home of a Florida audio parts dealer using that dealer's reference rig and music selections found a Yamaha integrated amp the functional equivalent of a pair of five-figure Pass Labs monoblocs...)
Depends on the type of distortion, though.
The type of distortion that actually creates "tube sound" is linear: frequency response errors (typically midrange boost) caused by high output impedance. This happens at levels and frequencies that are known to generally be audible. (This thread shows a yearning to find esoteric answers, but the fact of the matter is the above two sentences basically cover it.)
Harmonic distortion, by contrast? Unless the tube amp is grossly incompetent, probably not a factor.
Agree. Tho some people may have gotten their idea of the Tube Sound from amps like that. For me, there is more of a typical Transistor Sound, than a Tube Sound.
Fas42,
Apology for 'disappearing' for a day or two and now coming back 42 posts later. (At the rate folks post here I wonder when they are working - oops; sorry.)
Your post #541 refers - good explanation. I will not requote here, just sum up.
Regarding anomaly in quoting maximum output, yes, tube amplifiers can be overdriven more than ss before sounding really crap. But that is not by a large amount. Usually manufacturers quote distortion at maximum output, which should give an indication of the degree of overload. That should take care of dishonest figures for maximum output (and if the distortion is not quoted, be aware).
The other thing you explained about environmental effect on and by an amplifier, again true. In my experience internally generated spikes (mostly rectifier switching) by an amplifier does however not generate noticable interference on the power line - unless again one has to do with such a crappy design that the lot should belong in the rubbich bin. Who knows - everything is possible these days. Yes, where a strong enough broadcasted r.f. exists leads can pick that up. But again that can be taken care of comparitively easily. Should an amplifier be prone to that, to me it again fails as a properly designed amplifier.
So let us agree to refer to good (at least acceptable) designs of both topologies here. It brings me to repetition of a point often disregarded in comparisons - the real amplifier thing. E.g. let us not do as some journalists do: A sportsman is as good as his worst or his last performance. It is sadly all too true that bad examples of amplifier design exsist - again repetition, but in all the evidence where someone heard things amiss with the amplifier link in the chain; were they sure they were listening to a proper example?
It is on that basis - going back to the topic title - that I maintain there need not be tube sound as distinct form ss sound. It is not inherent. Perhaps a bold statement, but where there is a very noticable difference, it is the design which is at fault (with little excuse these days) and not in the first place whether tubes or transistors were used.
Thanks for patience Fas42.
Apology for 'disappearing' for a day or two and now coming back 42 posts later. (At the rate folks post here I wonder when they are working - oops; sorry.)
Your post #541 refers - good explanation. I will not requote here, just sum up.
Regarding anomaly in quoting maximum output, yes, tube amplifiers can be overdriven more than ss before sounding really crap. But that is not by a large amount. Usually manufacturers quote distortion at maximum output, which should give an indication of the degree of overload. That should take care of dishonest figures for maximum output (and if the distortion is not quoted, be aware).
The other thing you explained about environmental effect on and by an amplifier, again true. In my experience internally generated spikes (mostly rectifier switching) by an amplifier does however not generate noticable interference on the power line - unless again one has to do with such a crappy design that the lot should belong in the rubbich bin. Who knows - everything is possible these days. Yes, where a strong enough broadcasted r.f. exists leads can pick that up. But again that can be taken care of comparitively easily. Should an amplifier be prone to that, to me it again fails as a properly designed amplifier.
So let us agree to refer to good (at least acceptable) designs of both topologies here. It brings me to repetition of a point often disregarded in comparisons - the real amplifier thing. E.g. let us not do as some journalists do: A sportsman is as good as his worst or his last performance. It is sadly all too true that bad examples of amplifier design exsist - again repetition, but in all the evidence where someone heard things amiss with the amplifier link in the chain; were they sure they were listening to a proper example?
It is on that basis - going back to the topic title - that I maintain there need not be tube sound as distinct form ss sound. It is not inherent. Perhaps a bold statement, but where there is a very noticable difference, it is the design which is at fault (with little excuse these days) and not in the first place whether tubes or transistors were used.
Thanks for patience Fas42.
No worries, Johan ... 🙂
Yes, amplifiers can be built correctly, and some of the latest attempts are much better - at the recent Sydney audio there were a significant number of 'good' machines, that were able to show off their wares reasonably well ... all the brands that were capable have had excellent recent reviews in the hifi press, so the improvements have not gone unnoticed by others ...
And, yes, there is no need for a difference between well behaved SS and tube - I've heard examples of both, the SS much more recently, the tubed further in the past - and they both perform admirably in the areas that I consider essential; they were effectively equivalent in their behaviours.
Yes, amplifiers can be built correctly, and some of the latest attempts are much better - at the recent Sydney audio there were a significant number of 'good' machines, that were able to show off their wares reasonably well ... all the brands that were capable have had excellent recent reviews in the hifi press, so the improvements have not gone unnoticed by others ...
And, yes, there is no need for a difference between well behaved SS and tube - I've heard examples of both, the SS much more recently, the tubed further in the past - and they both perform admirably in the areas that I consider essential; they were effectively equivalent in their behaviours.
This has been brought up early on this thread (page 6). You would think certain readers would have learned something by now...
Sure. Some transistor amps sound more "tube like" than tubes - whatever that means.
But what is considered to be "the Tube Sound" today? I have a hard time knowing - as there are so many marketers muddying the waters. Warm? Round? Smooth? Muddy? Retro?
But what is considered to be "the Tube Sound" today? I have a hard time knowing - as there are so many marketers muddying the waters. Warm? Round? Smooth? Muddy? Retro?
"Whatever that means" is usually the lack of a treble edginess, an 'electronic', or 'metallic' quality to the sound - it sorta sounds more 'human made' ...
That's how I interpret it ...
That's how I interpret it ...
this thread is fun to read, it made me spill morning coffee on my "made in chian" backlit keyboard..😀
just littel on the numpad, now leds flashing like xmas tree, at least keys are fine
just littel on the numpad, now leds flashing like xmas tree, at least keys are fine
Thats my opinion too
There are good and bad in every thing, tubes and solid state..
A guy came around to listen to my kit last week and commented on the lifelike sound, his Graff / living voice set up sounds good in hifi shop terms, but i would not want to live with it.. There are some very different valve sounds
I was once very impressed with a mullard transistor module system from the70,s on my speaker it sounded very good, along with nelsons amps that are very good.
I run some diy meets and have had the pleasure of hearing quite a lot of good kit over the years
For me the average push pull sound vs the se sound is a bigger can of worms if one talks purely about quality, but then most are not concerned with ultimate sound quality .. What ever that may be?
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This has been brought up early on this thread (page 6). You would think certain readers would have learned something by now...
Yaaaaa.....
Exactly; vague. 'Whatever that means ...'
But I will hazard a guess, judging by the specs of the average tube amplifier these days:
Warm, musical, ..... A very audible dollop of 2nd harmonic, some 3rd, and little else. (The latter advantage sadly through no merit of the designer, but by benefit of most tube amplifiers mercifully exhibiting little high-order artifacts.) In different words, 'tuning' for little NFB because 'feedback-is-bad', and the sound after enough listening to the harmonic-ed output, 'deteriorates' with additional NFB because the sweet-sounding harmonics have now disappeared.
Apology for being blank.
... and included thus, 'damping factors' of an awesome 3 -6, allowing the loudspeaker to rule the roost.
Transistor sound (thrown in pasella):
Again dollops of, this time nfb, in the chase of the most "0"s to the right of the decimal point, creating a wheatfield of high order harmonics - but what the hell; we have the lowest THD: 0,000000whatever. (Thus forcing C.dom attenuation all the way down the scale for stability, until feedback cleanup is inversely related to frequency, harmonics spawning harmonics to a degree making any rabbit jealous.)
this thread is fun to read, it made me spill morning coffee on my "made in chian" backlit keyboard..😀
just littel on the numpad, now leds flashing like xmas tree, at least keys are fine
I'm jealous of you! This thread is sending me to sleep. Can't the meter readers and the golden ears come up with some more creative way of slogging it out? Like wrestling in mud, fighting with poisoned rapiers, having a hot air balloon race, settling it once and for all with a roll of the dice.....
Maybe somebody could sacrifice a goat?
It's like that cliche about families (from Tolstoy?): "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
All high-fidelity amps (flat FR in the audible band, low source impedance, low noise, low crossover distortion if applicable, adequate power for the SPL expected) sound alike; every low-fidelity amp (tube, SS, Class D, whatever) is lo-fi in its own way.
Hmmm ... there are 2 sorts of audio people: those that can hear the remaining distortions of "All high-fidelity amps (flat FR in the audible band, low source impedance, low noise, low crossover distortion if applicable, adequate power for the SPL expected)", ... and those that can't. The former often choose to go down the tube route ...
The great Allen Wright (RIP) could had said: 'Tube sound is caused of a badly designed tube amplifier. And they're easy to find!!'
Sadly Allen never published an OTL amplifier design even he claimed that every design made available from others was not made right...
But his balanced RTP3D preamp is great IMHO, the closest thing to 'wire with gain' I ever had in my system.
Sadly Allen never published an OTL amplifier design even he claimed that every design made available from others was not made right...
But his balanced RTP3D preamp is great IMHO, the closest thing to 'wire with gain' I ever had in my system.
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