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Just goes to show the 'expectation effect' is very powerful.
"Absence of proof is not proof of absence."
Expectation effect works both ways. A listener will not hear something they do not believe exists. If you were around in the early '80s you will remember how everyone was conned by the 'perfection' of CD 16-bit linear PCM.
Yes, another cable thread - but this one has the intention to see it from the technical sight and was therefore originally posted in the amplifiers forum.
Thanks to you all so far for your answers - even if they are mostly subjectivists view.
to summarize it: none of you really uses shielded cable and it looks like the starquad configuration is the way to go. To that i found a video on youtube that demonstrates the difference between a standard microphone cable and a starquad one (think it was the manufacturer benchmark). I think their findings can be also transferred to speaker cable.
Does anyone of you use ferrite clipped on the speaker cable?
Thanks to you all so far for your answers - even if they are mostly subjectivists view.
to summarize it: none of you really uses shielded cable and it looks like the starquad configuration is the way to go. To that i found a video on youtube that demonstrates the difference between a standard microphone cable and a starquad one (think it was the manufacturer benchmark). I think their findings can be also transferred to speaker cable.
Does anyone of you use ferrite clipped on the speaker cable?
I haven't played with ferrites clipped to speaker cables. I would think it not normally necessary, however I would not suggest it can't do something; it really depends on the circumstances and the design of the attached equipment. Many items of electronics respond in ways that seem to some people to impossible or ridiculous, because the behaviour of any individual piece of gear defies simple understanding.
There is another thread where people have measured speaker cable Z0 at audio frequencies and then compensated zip cord with lumped passive elements. Still not as good as proper star quad IMHO, but maybe cheaper: Zip cord for speaker test
I wish so much when OPs or responders use a seemingly arbitrary label like "starquad" that they would say clearly what it actually is - and not assume everyone knows what they're talking about.
Is it a brand? Is it a "configuration"; like a way wires get hooked up? Or assembled into a long, skinny structure? "Quad" seems to imply 4 of something.
"Star" seems to imply a grounding method. I cant for the life of me...
Then microphones gets mentioned. What does that have to do with how speaker cables sound? What's good for the goose?
Joe,
There are two pairs of conductors as shown in the pic below. Wires color coded the same are connected together at each end of the cable where it terminates.
Canare 4S11 Star Quad Speaker Cable, 14AWG (Gray, By the Foot) | Performance Audio
There are two pairs of conductors as shown in the pic below. Wires color coded the same are connected together at each end of the cable where it terminates.
Canare 4S11 Star Quad Speaker Cable, 14AWG (Gray, By the Foot) | Performance Audio
Attachments
You mean like ghosts and goblins? So if you don't believe an amp can have 10% distortion you won't hear it? Ridiculous. And a real blind test would tell you if its audible.
Mic cable and speaker cable are very different applications duh. Thats why real cable makers like Beldon make them different. Use speaker cable for speakers.
Once upon a time, and not that long ago, people did believe 1% THD was inaudible, then 0.1%, then 0.01%, then 0.001%...
The difficulty with speaker cable comparisons is that their behaviour is always both amplifier and loudspeaker dependant, so any individual's experience from a casual comparison (even blind) is likely to be inconsistent. That does not prove that cables are irrelevant or that there are not better constructed cables.
I have blind tested loudspeaker cables for 35 years as a professional audio engineer and I think have a built pretty good understanding of how properties of loudspeakers and amplifiers interplay. The largest installation I completed in an auditorium consisted of more than 320 loudspeakers and 20 kilometres of cable to 54 x four channel 250W/8Ω amplifiers. Did I care about getting the speaker cables right? You bet.
As an owner of a retail hifi store for 6 or 7 years in the early 2000s I often set up double blind speaker cable comparisons in the shop because a properly constructed low cost speaker cable was often easily the biggest bang for buck upgrade option out there. Selling good speaker cables didn't make me money, but the trust gained from clients as a consequence certainly did.
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Whilst it is certainly true that microphones and loudspeakers are different applications therefore subject to different degradations, the electrons in a conductor don't really care what they are being harnessed for. Current flow and its associated electromagnetic phenomena don't change whether its a microphone or speaker any more than if it's classical music or punk. Knowing what properties are important to a given application and correctly applying them is the key. Most professional cable manufacturers including Belden (US), Canare (Japan), Klotz (Germany), Eurocable (Italy), etc make a star-quad speaker cable. It's up to the user to determine if that property is important for their application.
well I think there is a difference not from the electrons flowing, but from the level (5mV MM or Mic) and impedance.
In a speaker cable the level is 20V and very low output impedance.
An external field induction will be attenuated by the low impedance and the level is a lot below the 20V
Now when the impedance is high a much higher voltage gets coupled and it is only 5mV level.
So it is completely unnecessary to shield speaker lines
It will do more harm by adding hundreds of pF as output load.
In a speaker cable the level is 20V and very low output impedance.
An external field induction will be attenuated by the low impedance and the level is a lot below the 20V
Now when the impedance is high a much higher voltage gets coupled and it is only 5mV level.
So it is completely unnecessary to shield speaker lines
It will do more harm by adding hundreds of pF as output load.
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Oh,come on.
ANOTHER cable thread?
36 posts so far while 2 or 3 were more than enough?
What can be said that hasn´t been said before in the thousand earlier threads and posts?
ALL that has been posted above: shielding, twisting, starquad, ferrite beads, using cables NOT intended for speaker duty, ALL HAS BEN SAID AND DISCUSSED AD NAUSEAM.
JUST USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760832
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760838
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760840
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760844
and so on and on and on and on and on and on .......
ANOTHER cable thread?
36 posts so far while 2 or 3 were more than enough?
What can be said that hasn´t been said before in the thousand earlier threads and posts?
ALL that has been posted above: shielding, twisting, starquad, ferrite beads, using cables NOT intended for speaker duty, ALL HAS BEN SAID AND DISCUSSED AD NAUSEAM.
JUST USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760832
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760838
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760840
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24760844
and so on and on and on and on and on and on .......
You sound familiar... Sound signature
It would be the conductor thickness for speaker cable. Cheap cables can do the job fine as long as it's thick enough.
^^^^^^^^ THAT.
At the short distances involved in "normal" amp to speaker setups, capacitance or inductance have no practical effect, and minimizing resistance is nice, although not to obsess about.
0.2 ohm is nothing to worry about and of course 0.02 or even 0.002 ohm is fine as long as it does not require forearm thick copper bars.
On the other side, needlessly multiplying capacitance shown by a regular parallel pair by 10 - 100 - 1000 X is worrying.
As long as speakers are not 100 meters away from amps, no big deal.
FWIW and by sake of comparison, I design and make my own speakers commercially, including voice coils, here two real World examples:
* a 2" one for a Guitar speaker:
50.7 mm inner diameter , 9 mm winding length, 8 ohm nominal , 0.20mm wire (will occupy about 0.22mm because of enamel, adhesive and simple lack of tightness):
82 Turns , 13 meters wire , ~7 ohm DCR
* a 2" one for a Woofer:
50.7 mm inner diameter , 14 mm winding length, 8 ohm nominal , 0.227mm wire (will occupy about 0.247mm because of enamel, adhesive and simple lack of tightness):
98 Turns , 15.7 meters wire , ~6.7 ohm DCR
Since you have unavoidable 13 to 15 meters of very thin 0.20 or 0.225 mm diameter copper wire in the current path, worrying about DCR or to a point, even diameter or length of amp to cabinet wire becomes quite irrelevant.
Maybe now you´ll forgive my lack of patience with long cable threads.
EDIT:
Searching any of those terms offers hundreds of results, those curious are cordially invited to search and read them.
At the short distances involved in "normal" amp to speaker setups, capacitance or inductance have no practical effect, and minimizing resistance is nice, although not to obsess about.
0.2 ohm is nothing to worry about and of course 0.02 or even 0.002 ohm is fine as long as it does not require forearm thick copper bars.
On the other side, needlessly multiplying capacitance shown by a regular parallel pair by 10 - 100 - 1000 X is worrying.
As long as speakers are not 100 meters away from amps, no big deal.
FWIW and by sake of comparison, I design and make my own speakers commercially, including voice coils, here two real World examples:
* a 2" one for a Guitar speaker:
50.7 mm inner diameter , 9 mm winding length, 8 ohm nominal , 0.20mm wire (will occupy about 0.22mm because of enamel, adhesive and simple lack of tightness):
82 Turns , 13 meters wire , ~7 ohm DCR
* a 2" one for a Woofer:
50.7 mm inner diameter , 14 mm winding length, 8 ohm nominal , 0.227mm wire (will occupy about 0.247mm because of enamel, adhesive and simple lack of tightness):
98 Turns , 15.7 meters wire , ~6.7 ohm DCR
Since you have unavoidable 13 to 15 meters of very thin 0.20 or 0.225 mm diameter copper wire in the current path, worrying about DCR or to a point, even diameter or length of amp to cabinet wire becomes quite irrelevant.
Maybe now you´ll forgive my lack of patience with long cable threads.
EDIT:
yes, that, thanks.
Searching any of those terms offers hundreds of results, those curious are cordially invited to search and read them.
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