Update..... I've fully switched to Android Tablets and Chromebooks when I got the WiiM Ultra.
Now, I can do bit perfect over the USB going to my DACs. Android and Chromebooks do not reclock the data going over ethernet -and Wifi- so it goes at the bit perfect bit rates.. and the WiiM Ultra does not reclock over USB and does not need USB-OTG... Using Tidal Connect.
I haven't tried FooBar yet to connect remotely to the DAC via WiiM Ultra as a remote 'audio device'.
In the past I used PCs, which work fine going directly to the DAC over USB but are more expensive.
So perhaps, the WiiM Ultra is a streamer.. or just a bridge?
I still believe that an i5 PC connecting to a good DAC over USB is sufficient. For USB at the DAC I recommend Schiit's Multibit Unison USB....
Now, I can do bit perfect over the USB going to my DACs. Android and Chromebooks do not reclock the data going over ethernet -and Wifi- so it goes at the bit perfect bit rates.. and the WiiM Ultra does not reclock over USB and does not need USB-OTG... Using Tidal Connect.
I haven't tried FooBar yet to connect remotely to the DAC via WiiM Ultra as a remote 'audio device'.
In the past I used PCs, which work fine going directly to the DAC over USB but are more expensive.
So perhaps, the WiiM Ultra is a streamer.. or just a bridge?
I still believe that an i5 PC connecting to a good DAC over USB is sufficient. For USB at the DAC I recommend Schiit's Multibit Unison USB....
Why?
Because it requires a very expensive and specially designed, developed, and engineered box to stop the Snake Oil leaking out...
I never understood this. All chips and processors in a PC are powered from several internal SMPS's that chop up whatever is coming in on the supply port.
Jan
It is the software for me.
I've been using a miniDSP SHD with Volumio and the streamer/Volumio implementation is hot garbage. I'm also not going to pay extra (monthly) for Roon (or something else) so I can get to my files on my network drive. I've been using an old Mac M1 Mini, which is fine but I don't have access via my phone (without another monthly fee ... but I can get to my network drive)
I've got a used Innuos Zen Mini on the way to me. The Sense app is excellent. The integration with Qobuz is superior to Volumio. I can get to my network drive without anything extra. Sometimes you pay more for something that meets all your wants
I've been using a miniDSP SHD with Volumio and the streamer/Volumio implementation is hot garbage. I'm also not going to pay extra (monthly) for Roon (or something else) so I can get to my files on my network drive. I've been using an old Mac M1 Mini, which is fine but I don't have access via my phone (without another monthly fee ... but I can get to my network drive)
I've got a used Innuos Zen Mini on the way to me. The Sense app is excellent. The integration with Qobuz is superior to Volumio. I can get to my network drive without anything extra. Sometimes you pay more for something that meets all your wants
Nothing to understand, just the usual parroted 'linear better than chopped up' fallacy.
I think the fundamental issue is where you put the DAC and how you communicate with it.
Eons ago I used to run 24/96 audio cards over PCI and they did well because they were well designed and isolated. But, they were pricey...
Later on we started to get external boards. I ran Firewire for quite a while and those were quite good with the PC. They sounded better.
USB came on its own when the audio folks moved to USB2 and added quality components on the receiving end of the asynchronous interface. With a well designed USB interface, they sound extremely good.
IMHO, the audio boards no longer belong within the PC. It's just too expensive to make a PC "electronically quiet" within. At work, in the lab, we've done heroic things to isolate the RF from PCs to get them to measure stuff in within a chamber. We pretty much gave up on the interior... just sealed the RF from going out and used networks to communicate with the metrology quality measuring instruments ( themselves isolated ).
That' interesting, which cards did you use? I played with a number of them and never hit an isolated one. Powered by internal +12V/-12V of the ATX PSU -> PCI bus, standard 78/9 linear regs for the analog part. When avoiding ground loops (which was not their fault) or using balanced outputs they sounded very good.
That was in the 90s.... I remember the M-Audio Audiophile 24/96. There were a couple more... I think an Echo 24/96 board was one of them too.. Most anything under 100 bucks was cr@p then.
Then I had some 5.1 cards too... I was running Windows 95, NT and later XP Pro. I had some expensive Sound Blaster 7.1 card set up in a custom made quiet computer for the HT... and in the 2ch I built a cube computer with very quiet fans and power supply...
Eventually I gave up in the HT and got an Emo UMC1 and a laptop with an ASUS 7.1 USB 2.0 board and got an M-Audio Firewire driven by a Dell laptop (firewire) for the main 2ch stereo.
Then I had some 5.1 cards too... I was running Windows 95, NT and later XP Pro. I had some expensive Sound Blaster 7.1 card set up in a custom made quiet computer for the HT... and in the 2ch I built a cube computer with very quiet fans and power supply...
Eventually I gave up in the HT and got an Emo UMC1 and a laptop with an ASUS 7.1 USB 2.0 board and got an M-Audio Firewire driven by a Dell laptop (firewire) for the main 2ch stereo.
Last edited:
Seems those grapes are still out of reach.
Took a look at their web site.
Is their price justified?
I'd say yes. For what it went to design it, build it, market it and sell it. It doesn't look like a cheap product at all. For a pieced of audio equipment it has a high WAF.
Is it worth the MSRP?
Strictly from a performance viewpoint, no, it is not worth it. They have pretty much reinvented the wheel, it cost them a ton of money to design, build, market... and due to the low volume of production their non recurring R&D has to be very expensive.
The High End Press will eat it up and enough audiophiles will buy it to go along with their other audio jewelry... you know... the ones that have audiophile ethernet switches and USB/ethernet cables...
But from the point of view of hooking it up and playing music through it and enjoying a good performance, I'm sure you can do the same thing for under a 500 bucks, heck for a 1000 bucks you can get a tablet, bridge and DAC.
The noise injection from SMPS is two-directional; one is related to difficulty with noise suppression at the DC side due to a non-existent low impedance ground plane; the other is the harm done back into the mains supply - this is easily overlooked. I'd always go for the lower overall noise option. Attempts to reduce the SMPS HF rubbish can only be partially successful because the noise cannot be coupled to the ground; the noise can only be burned in a form of heat or magnetic dissipation. Most of the time, the noise is shifted from one spectrum to a different spectrum.
What would be less intrusive than a small DAC box with a small bridge that allows for bit perfect streaming and a Chromebook or your cell phone to drive the music?
It would be helpful if you would define your perspective with FACTS instead of making a value statement with no supporting facts.
Do you think a Lumin stack is less obtrusive? Because that's what the comparison is all about here. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you read the stream of posts and checked out the Lumin website before you provided your opinion.
Surely you read this, right?
https://luminmusic.com/lumin-u2.html
It would be helpful if you would define your perspective with FACTS instead of making a value statement with no supporting facts.
Do you think a Lumin stack is less obtrusive? Because that's what the comparison is all about here. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you read the stream of posts and checked out the Lumin website before you provided your opinion.
Surely you read this, right?
https://luminmusic.com/lumin-u2.html
IMHO meaning of "obtrusive" is just as subjective and individual as meaning of "good sound". No point in arguing about it, everybody likes something else (fortunately).
OK, but at least he could define what definition of "obtrusive".
Mind you, I don't particularly care, but I'm just curious because he made a value judgment without providing the justification for his judgement.
To me, the form factor of a $15K stack of Lumin devices is a lot more obtrusive than a WiiM Ultra, a small USB DAC and a Chromebook/Android tablet. It all fits nicely on a single shelf.
Does he think that the Lumin stack is less obtrusive?
Because if you read what I wrote, I was specifically writing about the Lumin products. Not about anything else..
To others, unobtrusive might mean a couple of boards with soldered wires going out to a power supply. Which, again, it's fine with me.
Bottom line, if you're gonna make a value judgment, at least provide the facts on which you base that value.
As an aside... I wonder why so many DACs stick to USB, Bluetooth or the other wired connectivities.
Bluetooth sucks, USB has issues with bit perfect... and the other wired interfaces are a PITA.
Why don't DACs just dump Bluetooth and instead implement wired ethernet and WiFi? Doing so would be allow bit perfect for Chromebook. Android, Apple and PCs. It would be the most unobtrusive bit-perfect DAC-streamer you could imagine!
The WiiM Ultra is almost there, except that its DAC is just not the best. I mean, it's OK for most people, I got it as a 2ch feed into the home theather, but not good enough for our 2ch systems.
Mind you, I don't particularly care, but I'm just curious because he made a value judgment without providing the justification for his judgement.
To me, the form factor of a $15K stack of Lumin devices is a lot more obtrusive than a WiiM Ultra, a small USB DAC and a Chromebook/Android tablet. It all fits nicely on a single shelf.
Does he think that the Lumin stack is less obtrusive?
Because if you read what I wrote, I was specifically writing about the Lumin products. Not about anything else..
To others, unobtrusive might mean a couple of boards with soldered wires going out to a power supply. Which, again, it's fine with me.
Bottom line, if you're gonna make a value judgment, at least provide the facts on which you base that value.
As an aside... I wonder why so many DACs stick to USB, Bluetooth or the other wired connectivities.
Bluetooth sucks, USB has issues with bit perfect... and the other wired interfaces are a PITA.
Why don't DACs just dump Bluetooth and instead implement wired ethernet and WiFi? Doing so would be allow bit perfect for Chromebook. Android, Apple and PCs. It would be the most unobtrusive bit-perfect DAC-streamer you could imagine!
The WiiM Ultra is almost there, except that its DAC is just not the best. I mean, it's OK for most people, I got it as a 2ch feed into the home theather, but not good enough for our 2ch systems.
Last edited:
No justification is required.
Only one of the Lumin U2 variants is required for streaming. FWIW, I've had a Melco for about a decade. It is about the same size as the Lumin.
Only one of the Lumin U2 variants is required for streaming. FWIW, I've had a Melco for about a decade. It is about the same size as the Lumin.
Hm, what issues? Any more info? UAC1/2 is as bit-perfect as it can get.
Unlike BT and USB, ethernet audio has no one widely-used standard. There are numerous open methods (HTTP, RTP), numerous proprietary methods (Roon, various Apple formats, VBAN, and many more). How do you pass windows/apple/linux audio to a DAC over network practically? What audio drivers with standard interface used by applications (i.e. WASAPI or ASIO on windows, core audio on OSX, alsa/pipewire on linux) would you use for that?
Also, unlike async UAC1/2, streaming network protocols (the widely used RTP) are clock masters and require some form of adaptive resampling on the receiver to merge with the output device clock - not bitperfect by principle.