It happens when amps with relatively high output impedance drive speakers which designers assumed electrical damping. Similarly, on mid frequencies such combination of amps and speakers produce kind of "soapy, rounded" sound.
During BAF 2009 we used my tube amp to audition speakers, including some 3-way speakers with complex crossovers. Nobody complained, sound was nice. Why? Because that amp had local feedback by voltage around output tubes, in addition to a global one.
But I personally use SS amps to drive woofers and subwoofer in my home setup.
Much truth in that. I have compared my direct mike feeds with the same signal passed through A/D and D/A, and damned if I can hear any difference as long as the levels are set correctly. I wouldn't characterize the sound as "tending toward harshness," but that's why I use the mikes that I do.
Hi J,
TBH, if I had any real clue what is going on, I'd tell and claim my nobel...
All I know is that I have observations insufficiently explained by traditional metrics and I have no alternative metrics to make them tractable.
Though, to paraphrase Robert Anthony Wilson, I know very little and believe nothing, but I do have a lot of suspicions.
And jitter (if not taken single number, single dimensional) does feature prominent in some lists of suspects....
Ciao T
TBH, if I had any real clue what is going on, I'd tell and claim my nobel...
All I know is that I have observations insufficiently explained by traditional metrics and I have no alternative metrics to make them tractable.
Though, to paraphrase Robert Anthony Wilson, I know very little and believe nothing, but I do have a lot of suspicions.
And jitter (if not taken single number, single dimensional) does feature prominent in some lists of suspects....
Ciao T
I agree with Nico , device and topology differences are "subtle". Some of my listeners will say "wow" because the amp has a lot of headroom (it is loud -duh).
This is the reaction to a "blameless" w/EF2- 3pair BJT at 200w .. BTW.
I show them (in the midst of the 120db experience) that some designs will retain the "first watt" detail at these levels. How the amp "scales" (1w - 200w) is another factor that I take into account. This is the "subtle difference" that I can hear on a hawksford cascode with a triple OPS.
I have taken into account the "listener". Most are patrons of drinking establishments ... but the hawksford has many putting chairs between the speakers to really listen (with a "buzz"). The "blameless" is not bad , very reliable and scalable .. but it's reputed PPM THD is not everything (sonically). There must be other topology "magics" (PIM/IM) , at play here. 😕
PS - I continue to study the Japanese " masters".
OS
This is the reaction to a "blameless" w/EF2- 3pair BJT at 200w .. BTW.
I show them (in the midst of the 120db experience) that some designs will retain the "first watt" detail at these levels. How the amp "scales" (1w - 200w) is another factor that I take into account. This is the "subtle difference" that I can hear on a hawksford cascode with a triple OPS.
I have taken into account the "listener". Most are patrons of drinking establishments ... but the hawksford has many putting chairs between the speakers to really listen (with a "buzz"). The "blameless" is not bad , very reliable and scalable .. but it's reputed PPM THD is not everything (sonically). There must be other topology "magics" (PIM/IM) , at play here. 😕
PS - I continue to study the Japanese " masters".
OS
I agree , the Naksa combines FET and BJT. I will ultmately have a CFP fet/bjt input pair driving another MOSFET/BJT pair (hawksford)VAS. Why ?? just to use exotic parts ? No ... it sounds better, and fets have different early effect characteristics than bjt's (ohhh - more tubelike). All these "hint's" and guess what you have ... the $30 luxman (b1000f ) . 😀😀
PS - just one difference , one can have super low thd with this topology. Could be the best of both worlds. 🙂
OS
Well thanks a lot Thorsten, having dragged us all off into the wilderness, you're now going to admit you have neither map nor compass.
Thomas Gray said:
w
Which Tripath are you using? Into what load?
If it'll take up to 30V, use a 10 amp/25.6V LiFePo4 batt-pack similar to the ones from Ping Electronics... probably the closest you'll get to the RWA.
The Virtue amps I'm using have the doubled "high-current" output configuration and can really sing with 4 ohm loads. Combined with the LFP pack, it's pretty amazing stuff.
Hi 'baki,
I dragged no-one anywhere.
You are precisely where you where before, in precisely the same wilderness without map nor compass. The difference is that I have (if successful) destroyed the illusion that you (and others) where not in a wilderness and actually did know where you where going with your supposed map and supposed...
One one realises the true situation it may be changed, while living in illusions nothing can be changed.
Living in illusions is comforting though to many.
Ciao T
I dragged no-one anywhere.
You are precisely where you where before, in precisely the same wilderness without map nor compass. The difference is that I have (if successful) destroyed the illusion that you (and others) where not in a wilderness and actually did know where you where going with your supposed map and supposed...
One one realises the true situation it may be changed, while living in illusions nothing can be changed.
Living in illusions is comforting though to many.
Ciao T
Hi,
there´s certainly no lack of serious research on hearing, everything being explored in great detail, no need for own made-up arbitrary concoctions¤ with a touch of psychopathological mysticism; subliminal imaginations, unexpected expectations, theoretical illusions and similar nonsense as ingredients.
¤ a more modest designation instead of Thorsten`s "moronic debunker type's assertions"
there´s certainly no lack of serious research on hearing, everything being explored in great detail, no need for own made-up arbitrary concoctions¤ with a touch of psychopathological mysticism; subliminal imaginations, unexpected expectations, theoretical illusions and similar nonsense as ingredients.
¤ a more modest designation instead of Thorsten`s "moronic debunker type's assertions"
SY, you ignored the next part of my post
Like the masses, you like the sound of jitter!jkenny said:
It's a TA2020 based board - I ran it from lithium batteries for a while & liked the sound.What Tripath chip does the Virtue use?
Two candidates that probably feature strongly in the mix of suspects?
- jitter
- RF noise
Jitter tends to be the catch-all category into which "unknowns" are slotted!
Yep, funny that Waki doesn't hear this (or allow himself to hear this) - how is your DAC coming along - does it sound the same as what you had before? Was it a complete waste of money then?
Apart, possibly, from liking the sound of jitter, what's the problem with being one of the masses?
You just threw that in for its prejudicial value, you elitist you.
w
Outside controlled test conditions. I don't really expect anything other than howls of protest, this site being the haunt of so many whose interest is neither electronics or music but equipment worship, but could all the rest just go +1 or some such?
Yes, it sounds the same as all the other DACs I have here, the one in the Bluray, the one in the soundcard, the one in the DVD I haven't thrown out, the ones in the portable CDPs, the Fostex 8-traack recorder.
No it wasn't a waste of money, it kept me entertained for an hour building it.
w
I think that's an unfair personal characterization. A look at what I actually wrote suggests that he just honestly misread it.
Try the 2000/2050 combo
The 2020 has much lower power and IMO doesn't have nearly enough, especially into a 4 ohm load.
I think Virtue may be using the same controller but with Apogee output chips on their Sensation, which is their best amp.
I have had several 2020 based units which sounded good, but there appears to be a significant improvement in sonics, (at least part of which is the much greater power output) when moving up to the 2000/2050 combo, and another jump in quality when using 2000 + double 2050's
The 2020 may be equally good when used with very high efficiency speakers, but on anything else, it seems clear that the 2000 based units are superior. It may not just be the power, Vinnie at RWA says the 2000 is the best sounding of the Tripath controller chips, better than their higher power brethren.
For a good idea of the "el cheapo" performance, try one of the Sure Electronics boards with the 25.6V supply, and replace the input coupling cap with a 2.2uF Mundorf Zn...it's a pretty good start.
Then if you want to further experiment (and you will, I'm sure!), you can start replacing the output filter caps and chokes, the onboard electrolytics with elna Silmics, etc.
With those mods you'll be able to get a better idea of the actual potential of these chipsets.
I've been comparing between various stock versions of this amp as offered by Sure, Arjen Helder and Meanwell, in hopes that I can get something close to the Virtue for use in a self-powered speaker that I'm working on... and then modding them.....so far, the Virtue has bested all my attempts.
Drop us a note when you've had a chance to hear one of the "el cheapo" mods!
AFAIK, Virtue's first offerings ran TC2000 controller w doubled current output 2050s
The 2020 has much lower power and IMO doesn't have nearly enough, especially into a 4 ohm load.
I think Virtue may be using the same controller but with Apogee output chips on their Sensation, which is their best amp.
I have had several 2020 based units which sounded good, but there appears to be a significant improvement in sonics, (at least part of which is the much greater power output) when moving up to the 2000/2050 combo, and another jump in quality when using 2000 + double 2050's
The 2020 may be equally good when used with very high efficiency speakers, but on anything else, it seems clear that the 2000 based units are superior. It may not just be the power, Vinnie at RWA says the 2000 is the best sounding of the Tripath controller chips, better than their higher power brethren.
For a good idea of the "el cheapo" performance, try one of the Sure Electronics boards with the 25.6V supply, and replace the input coupling cap with a 2.2uF Mundorf Zn...it's a pretty good start.
Then if you want to further experiment (and you will, I'm sure!), you can start replacing the output filter caps and chokes, the onboard electrolytics with elna Silmics, etc.
With those mods you'll be able to get a better idea of the actual potential of these chipsets.
I've been comparing between various stock versions of this amp as offered by Sure, Arjen Helder and Meanwell, in hopes that I can get something close to the Virtue for use in a self-powered speaker that I'm working on... and then modding them.....so far, the Virtue has bested all my attempts.
Drop us a note when you've had a chance to hear one of the "el cheapo" mods!
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