I have not seen a statement like this yet. Can you please elaborate on/explain in more detail. I'm here to learn.
Thank you
Thanks for the comments.
To give you some feedback.
Disco Pete - I'm not particularly looking for 30 year old speakers. Just the opposite. I want to make a pair of better quality, larger speakers with a bit more bass and a minimum sensitivity of 89 dB . My logic is that with more expensive components I will have a superior speaker. The Tannoys probably cost about £150 in 1991, so maybe £300 today. I'll be spending more than that on drivers!
DrewMC. Absolutely. I have a new class D amp with 50w/ch -TPA3250 from 3e Audio in China. I now with I'd bought the 100 w/ch. Sounds great except for too high upper mids for my liking. It does have Sigma DSP. I'm waiting for the USBi adaptor so I can equalize it down a bit when it arrives and I learn the software. Still I'd like to have the option of being able to use a 6 watt amp if I wanted to.
Diyuser2010. Thanks for the chart. I'll use it if one day I actually design a pair of speakers myself. The thought has crossed my mind. For now I'll stick to a design that's been made and tested already. There's sp many factors to consider.
giralfino. Ciao amico. Spero stai bene. Not restricted 8 inch drivers. I'm prepared to use 9" or 10". Will probably be 10" in the WD25t design.Designing Loudspeakers - WD25T EX - The next step
tubeglow49. Thanks for the link, excellent suggestion. Hadn't looked at that one, as I'd been focusing on a 2-way. Had a look at Troels designs. Originally I was going for his cheaper standmount Discovery 18w, but again low sensitivity.
indianjo. Wow. They wouldn't get through the door!!
anatech. Thanks. had a look - out of my price range. £1200 per unit. That's £2400 I don't have.
Cheers folks.
I think I've made up my mind. It's the WD25t. Once they're made then I'll choose an amp to match. To quote Steve Guttenburg on his daily podcast - if you want to build a system from scratch, start with the speaker. But then in a recent one he lauded the low watt amps senstivie speakers. He loves the Klipsch RP600m, to put it mildly.
To give you some feedback.
Disco Pete - I'm not particularly looking for 30 year old speakers. Just the opposite. I want to make a pair of better quality, larger speakers with a bit more bass and a minimum sensitivity of 89 dB . My logic is that with more expensive components I will have a superior speaker. The Tannoys probably cost about £150 in 1991, so maybe £300 today. I'll be spending more than that on drivers!
DrewMC. Absolutely. I have a new class D amp with 50w/ch -TPA3250 from 3e Audio in China. I now with I'd bought the 100 w/ch. Sounds great except for too high upper mids for my liking. It does have Sigma DSP. I'm waiting for the USBi adaptor so I can equalize it down a bit when it arrives and I learn the software. Still I'd like to have the option of being able to use a 6 watt amp if I wanted to.
Diyuser2010. Thanks for the chart. I'll use it if one day I actually design a pair of speakers myself. The thought has crossed my mind. For now I'll stick to a design that's been made and tested already. There's sp many factors to consider.
giralfino. Ciao amico. Spero stai bene. Not restricted 8 inch drivers. I'm prepared to use 9" or 10". Will probably be 10" in the WD25t design.Designing Loudspeakers - WD25T EX - The next step
tubeglow49. Thanks for the link, excellent suggestion. Hadn't looked at that one, as I'd been focusing on a 2-way. Had a look at Troels designs. Originally I was going for his cheaper standmount Discovery 18w, but again low sensitivity.
indianjo. Wow. They wouldn't get through the door!!
anatech. Thanks. had a look - out of my price range. £1200 per unit. That's £2400 I don't have.
Cheers folks.
I think I've made up my mind. It's the WD25t. Once they're made then I'll choose an amp to match. To quote Steve Guttenburg on his daily podcast - if you want to build a system from scratch, start with the speaker. But then in a recent one he lauded the low watt amps senstivie speakers. He loves the Klipsch RP600m, to put it mildly.
If you want a fullrange of that kind that has bass, try Mark Audio fullrange drivers. I did build a cabinet with the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3, bookshelf style that is 89dB efficient and goes to 45hz, and it's only 18L of size (if you want the plan, pm me). In a TL style of cabinet this driver can easely go deeper towards 35Hz, but that will be a bigger cabinet. The cheaper CHN110 does the same in a cabinet double the size. Fostex does only give bass in big horns, and even then it's very limited.
Most multiway cabinets are lower, as the crossover eats some efficiency, and the drivers are mostly 85-90dB when of that size. It's hard to go low and high sensitive (read: impossible) wit smaller drivers.
Most multiway cabinets are lower, as the crossover eats some efficiency, and the drivers are mostly 85-90dB when of that size. It's hard to go low and high sensitive (read: impossible) wit smaller drivers.
Last edited:
@Discopete:
Distortion, yeah that is really, really complicated😉 You never stop learning
Let's focus just one one thing my GF will be home in a little bit, so no articles, only a link to one😉 So distortion in speakers is due to many factors but one of the biggest is the extent of cone movement. No movement no distortion😀 But at Xmax you have 10% THD as per definition. The less movement the less distortion, ideally below 10% of Xmax to be bellow the noise floor and why low level listening possibiltiy of some speakers is especially important to audiophiles, keep membrane distortion below noise floor, see comment above regarding efficiency in high end as well. So a bit oversimplified, if there is not enough Sd (Membrane area, but actually more the radiating area, e.g. horn, etc.) then, or better said the lower the frequency the more Sd is needed to achieve a SPL per mm of cone movement. Now there is also an issue with distortion in amplifiers that tends to go up with more output.
So super oversimplified, if due to a efficient well designed speaker with lots of membrane area, or a well designed horn, your amp needs to send far less "power" to your speakers to achieve the desired SPL. Of course the issue depends on amps, e.g. class D, the source, the drivers, the quality of your power coming out of the electric line, conversions/corrections/DSP, crossover, jitter, frequency, room, resonances, etc.
Membrane material, magnet vs. field coil, gap and driver design, difraction, interference, reflections and many other factors play a role, keep in mind the directionality of high frequencies vs. omnidirectionality of lower frequencies.
And here is the original "issue" of the OP he needs a speaker that gives him the "right" distortions.
With all the DSP and D class power, and overly stiff and damped drivers what often gets lost is some distortion, the right kind 😉 This is what for most music lovers makes the music magical, what transmits the emotion. That and how fast you can change SPL levels and music headroom, usually summized as how dynamic or how much PRAT a speaker has. This is the reason why a lot of people e.g. OP Adejacko, prefer SET amps, DHT, 300B, 845, etc. which color and distort but often transmit that essential emotion much better than sterile amps and speakers. Music reproduction is science, art and psychology😉
But the important thing is what makes you happy. If you want that distortion that 8w of SET gives you then you have to deal with size, Sd and efficiency and usually need very light weight membranes. If you want more right and less wrong distortions, this can be done, but can get big and expensive very fast.
Similar things can be done with compression drivers in high frequencies but no time here. As always it's complicated, know what you like and what compromises you are willing to make to become happy. More knowledge is helpful but follow your heart and turning of your head will be the goal or way, probably both😉
I gotta run, my GF just came back, so I will just quote myself and link to some diyaudio research by weltersys on Sd and distortion at frequency and a good article on Kippel values and plots and how to better understand distortion of drivers. Hope this was not totally confusing
"The question with using one 8” woofer with dsp and lots of power for going down to 30hz and getting enough SPL, vs-a15” woofer is usually distortion (and usually needing a heavier membrane)
weltersys did some experiments and has some conclusions in general and also links to his research on different driver diameters and distortion at various frequencies and with different enclosures, and a summary here:
Distortion vs excursion?
If you really want to go serious into the distortion and parameters I suggest reading some background such as
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_mi...ymptoms_01.pdf
and getting the Kippel plots for the drivers you are looking at, some can go close to Xmax with fairly low distortion, it all depends as usual."
hope this helps
Distortion, yeah that is really, really complicated😉 You never stop learning
Let's focus just one one thing my GF will be home in a little bit, so no articles, only a link to one😉 So distortion in speakers is due to many factors but one of the biggest is the extent of cone movement. No movement no distortion😀 But at Xmax you have 10% THD as per definition. The less movement the less distortion, ideally below 10% of Xmax to be bellow the noise floor and why low level listening possibiltiy of some speakers is especially important to audiophiles, keep membrane distortion below noise floor, see comment above regarding efficiency in high end as well. So a bit oversimplified, if there is not enough Sd (Membrane area, but actually more the radiating area, e.g. horn, etc.) then, or better said the lower the frequency the more Sd is needed to achieve a SPL per mm of cone movement. Now there is also an issue with distortion in amplifiers that tends to go up with more output.
So super oversimplified, if due to a efficient well designed speaker with lots of membrane area, or a well designed horn, your amp needs to send far less "power" to your speakers to achieve the desired SPL. Of course the issue depends on amps, e.g. class D, the source, the drivers, the quality of your power coming out of the electric line, conversions/corrections/DSP, crossover, jitter, frequency, room, resonances, etc.
Membrane material, magnet vs. field coil, gap and driver design, difraction, interference, reflections and many other factors play a role, keep in mind the directionality of high frequencies vs. omnidirectionality of lower frequencies.
And here is the original "issue" of the OP he needs a speaker that gives him the "right" distortions.
With all the DSP and D class power, and overly stiff and damped drivers what often gets lost is some distortion, the right kind 😉 This is what for most music lovers makes the music magical, what transmits the emotion. That and how fast you can change SPL levels and music headroom, usually summized as how dynamic or how much PRAT a speaker has. This is the reason why a lot of people e.g. OP Adejacko, prefer SET amps, DHT, 300B, 845, etc. which color and distort but often transmit that essential emotion much better than sterile amps and speakers. Music reproduction is science, art and psychology😉
But the important thing is what makes you happy. If you want that distortion that 8w of SET gives you then you have to deal with size, Sd and efficiency and usually need very light weight membranes. If you want more right and less wrong distortions, this can be done, but can get big and expensive very fast.
Similar things can be done with compression drivers in high frequencies but no time here. As always it's complicated, know what you like and what compromises you are willing to make to become happy. More knowledge is helpful but follow your heart and turning of your head will be the goal or way, probably both😉
I gotta run, my GF just came back, so I will just quote myself and link to some diyaudio research by weltersys on Sd and distortion at frequency and a good article on Kippel values and plots and how to better understand distortion of drivers. Hope this was not totally confusing
"The question with using one 8” woofer with dsp and lots of power for going down to 30hz and getting enough SPL, vs-a15” woofer is usually distortion (and usually needing a heavier membrane)
weltersys did some experiments and has some conclusions in general and also links to his research on different driver diameters and distortion at various frequencies and with different enclosures, and a summary here:
Distortion vs excursion?
If you really want to go serious into the distortion and parameters I suggest reading some background such as
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_mi...ymptoms_01.pdf
and getting the Kippel plots for the drivers you are looking at, some can go close to Xmax with fairly low distortion, it all depends as usual."
hope this helps
@Adejacko
Make sure you can live with the bass rolloff at 120hz and look at the off axis responses. Looks a bit like this speaker might be sensitive to speaker positioning and not very sensitive overall 😀, and have a fixed sweetspot. Compare those graphs with e.g. the Asathor I posted on. No time to get into it now, my weekend is starting, maybe someone else will give you feedback or you can find more info. Good you are going to floorstander and 10".
Cheers
Make sure you can live with the bass rolloff at 120hz and look at the off axis responses. Looks a bit like this speaker might be sensitive to speaker positioning and not very sensitive overall 😀, and have a fixed sweetspot. Compare those graphs with e.g. the Asathor I posted on. No time to get into it now, my weekend is starting, maybe someone else will give you feedback or you can find more info. Good you are going to floorstander and 10".
Cheers
With a couple of modifications, the speakers I use would work for you, and fit into your budget.
They were designed with the following requirements:
- 2-way for relative simplicity
- Sound good without any DSP
- Play full-range
- Play loud (for a UK living room), and overload gracefully
- Controlled directivity
- Be placed near a back wall
The drivers are 1x Seas H1252-08 and 1x B&C DE250 on an 18Sound XT120 horn. In their current state, they're mid-80s at 1w.
However, the HF horn is padded down by something like 20dB. You could easily have up to 9x 8" drivers (per side) to bring the sensitivity up to wherever you want it. One more 8" driver per side would put the voltage sensitivity up by 6dB, but becomes a 4ohm load and therefore would draw twice the current.
Let me know if this is of interest, and I'll post some data.
Chris
@Adejacko ignore comments on off angle just a tiny graph and me being distracted and in a hurry. Looks kike it has exceptional off achsis response for the speaker after looking at it again at breakfast. Looks very promissing as a speaker but as you stated will likely require a bigger amp.
Hi Adejacko,
Look on the used market ...
The Peerless woofers are extremely accurate and have very low frequency bass response. Reasonably priced but not the highest efficiency due to the shorting ring that linearizes the driver. I've built using these for years and an 8" two way (1" dome) in a B4 box (ported) should get you into the mid 30's for -3dB down. That just might be lower than the response supported by your room. Midrange output is very good with these and make crossing over to the tweeter easier. You need a zoble for sure.
Play with them in your favorite box program and build a pair. I think the price / performance will get you.
-Chris
Look on the used market ...
The Peerless woofers are extremely accurate and have very low frequency bass response. Reasonably priced but not the highest efficiency due to the shorting ring that linearizes the driver. I've built using these for years and an 8" two way (1" dome) in a B4 box (ported) should get you into the mid 30's for -3dB down. That just might be lower than the response supported by your room. Midrange output is very good with these and make crossing over to the tweeter easier. You need a zoble for sure.
Play with them in your favorite box program and build a pair. I think the price / performance will get you.
-Chris
Thanks everyone for their help. I bought a 6w SET amp and I love its mids -never heard amplified music sound so real. It lacks bass, so I'm considering a bi-amp system with tubes for the mids and highs with class A/B or D for the lows. Either active xo or DSP. Probably the most sensible thing to do would be to build a sub first, see how that blends in with the Tannoys. It's something I'd like to have anyway. That may be enough ... for the moment. Gotta save those pennies up first!
An mtm comprised of 2x6.5" midwoofers and a small flange tweeter would offer decent bass and desired sensitivity.
Another solution, an MT configuration, Vifa P21WO-20-08 and Morel CAT378. Sensitivity around 88dB/2.83V/1m, designed for closer proximity to wall 89-90dB. Drivers, crossovers, cabinets in the 600 GBP range. Drivers calculated are Falcon Acoustics prices.
Last edited:
Eminence coaxial. Cheap effective. In a 45l box also produce deep bass and high power. Midrange a little bumpy though lol
It will definitely be an advantage to use a design that goes near to the wall behind it. Anything that needs baffle step compensation will be losing output.
The Karlsonator speaker might be worth looking into.
The Karlsonator speaker might be worth looking into.
Or a small FR. Tremendous bottom on these and the seemless quality of the tricked out Mark Audio.
The A12pw used is itself sometimes used as a FR, so anything you want to stick into the space the midTweeter is, as long as you can XO 5k or less. Being an MTM one does wan as close a spacing as possible to get as close to the magic quarterwave centre to centre of the midbasses.
dave
High power got cheap. Sometimes efficiency is traded off to get improvements in other performance parameters in speakers.
