Well, that's a pretty silly answer. Something like K-horns are 104dB sensitive vs. 89dB for an average speaker. So, to get 110dB out of the K-horns requires 4W, a piddling bedside radio could do it. Whereas, for that conventional speaker, the amplifier needs to pump out 128W to get 110dB SPL, most amplifiers are gasping for breath at this point, the Pioneer receiver would be sounding mighty sick, if not terminal ...
So, for a fair match, you do need a 1000W amplifier ...
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My friend that is my point. All of that heat adds up eventually to what I feel is audible distortion and perhaps listener fatigue. Lets face it, cone motion IS distortion, the less the better. I will note that I was not asked, which Rotel or which Crowns ? I have, or have access to some shall we say, a "tad" better than average power amps, I know the difference. (-: And oh yeah, you are right these 801's are not kind to anything less than a beast. I do not belive their 90 db figure for an instant. It did not take more than one client opinion Hip Hop session to prove that to me, and that with a Hafler 500 no less, which I had heretofore never defeated. And we are not talking about very loud levels either. I would hate to think about what would be going on inside of these fine drivers there. You need the power on these just to keep it clean at moderate levels for peaks. Therefore, this is not my personal listening choice except at low levels. Jazz is fine which happens to be my personal favorite thing to listen too, but I have to listen to everything. Forget Pop or Rock or hip-hop. Donald Fagen Morph The Cat eats these speakers and that Hafler for breakfast in my 16x30x8 modest sized room. Not going to happen for my own extended listening on on Matrix 801's which has to also include some occasional higher Spls. Maybe the Nautilus does power better. I'm not finding out.
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The Sentry IIIs sure make a better Hip Hop and Rock "client impression" speaker. Guessing low distortion at high volumes has something to do with that. 😀 Obviously, the 801'a are the 'schiit' at mastering levels. I simply feel at higher levels this sort of open driver speaker not at it's best even with a giant and clean amp. And that, considering that this speaker actually is representative of the average speaker, just might be responsible for the OP's fatigue. Some people are listening at higher levels than they think they are.
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I think we rely on the speakers to tell us how loud our music is. When it starts to have that 'loud' sound then we know...
Hi Sjef,
If you call that a severe cone breakup than I don't know the definition of severe cone breakup anymore. 😉
I rather say that this Scan Speak paper coned driver has a severe breakup of +10db.
I think lumping "horn speakers" into a big "sounds alike" group makes about as much sense as lumping all cone driver speakers into a "sounds alike" group. They just don't.
Since I own a 3-way horn loaded system (modified Altec A5 + super tweeter) I can't agree that it sounds "horny". Sure, people come into my listening room and are afraid when they look at it, but leave in love. No one has said it has a horn sound or colorations, tho I've asked over and over. Mostly it's picking the right parts and building a good crossover. That makes the difference.
Since I own a 3-way horn loaded system (modified Altec A5 + super tweeter) I can't agree that it sounds "horny". Sure, people come into my listening room and are afraid when they look at it, but leave in love. No one has said it has a horn sound or colorations, tho I've asked over and over. Mostly it's picking the right parts and building a good crossover. That makes the difference.
It's drivers like that I run away from regardless of so called "quality", others listening impressions, popularity or distortion numbers in band.
Reason? Even if this driver is crossed low to audibly eliminate the breakup it still has an effect. Whenever a signal rises at a rate which corresponds to the breakup frequency it will cause transient intermodulation distortion to increase. Which in my mind, adversely affects musical content on a dynamic scale. Personally refer to this as mashing.
Agreed. No one has ever commented on my Goto-Unit powered horn system to sound 'horny' at all. If anything, most say the system is 'so effortless' and 'so natural' sounding. Possibly due to a less amount of distortion (esp. at 'live' listening levels), comparative to the typical high-end 'inefficient' multi-driver cone speaker which they might be used to? Do have to admit that the latter is usually much more visually appealing to most and also WAF friendly.
Scan Speak is a pretty bad example indeed. They used to make pretty decent drivers that where quite easy to use for the DIY as well but nowadays they are too much focused on inner detail retrieval with a compromise on heavy breakup. These are no drivers for the DIY'er who don't have the highest level of skills in crossover design. Even a lot of professional designers can't cope with them. Ever wondered why there are so many project with expensive Scan Speak drivers are abandoned after a while, while initially the owner was full of praise on them ? Right, listening fatigue.
I've posted before but can't find it. Can't seem to find it on my computer, either.
A very bad procedure as it means the speakers will be fatigue producers. Speaker should never sound 'loud'.
I listen on 801's through a Crown. Works for me (except that at the moment my Crown is back in Elkhart for repair and I'm sitting at the computer playing Lohengrin through my little Bose computer speakers).
I don't find the 801's fatiguing but it's been decades since I've listened to other similar speakers to compare them with. As a disclaimer I should add that as much as I love opera, most of my listening is chamber music and folk.
I don't find the 801's fatiguing but it's been decades since I've listened to other similar speakers to compare them with. As a disclaimer I should add that as much as I love opera, most of my listening is chamber music and folk.
This is absolutely true. In fairness I've heard almost no horns in my life that didn't sound at least a little like the stereotype. I agree that the crossover plays an important role in this, in combination with other things.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...acteristics-cant-measured-17.html#post3409595
I owned N801 for a time and posted above.
801 owners are speaking but dont seem to have same extreme issues? Curious
I owned N801 for a time and posted above.
801 owners are speaking but dont seem to have same extreme issues? Curious
I know the 801 has a reputation as quite a sophisticated design and built with high quality, but this doesn't preclude that they got the sonic balance wrong and that it might have a fatiguing sound. I haven't seriously sat and listened to them.
The trouble with this thread is that there is to mauch generalization going on with no evidence to back it up. "Low sensitivity direct radiators are fatiguing because of high distortion." "Horns are fatiguing from horn coloration."
How can anyone generalize without surveying the market and really knowing that all direct radiators have a sound or all horns have another sound (somewhat unlikely). Also, much of this has to do with play back level. If I listen to direct radiators at 85 and you listen to horns at 110, who's to say that distortion isn't vanishingly low for me and high for you?
"Generalizing from the particular", my old boss would say. His second favorite phrase was "opinion masquerading as fact".
David
The trouble with this thread is that there is to mauch generalization going on with no evidence to back it up. "Low sensitivity direct radiators are fatiguing because of high distortion." "Horns are fatiguing from horn coloration."
How can anyone generalize without surveying the market and really knowing that all direct radiators have a sound or all horns have another sound (somewhat unlikely). Also, much of this has to do with play back level. If I listen to direct radiators at 85 and you listen to horns at 110, who's to say that distortion isn't vanishingly low for me and high for you?
"Generalizing from the particular", my old boss would say. His second favorite phrase was "opinion masquerading as fact".
David
801s sound great. It's just that horn loaded speakers are even capable of doing what speakers were designed to do. Reproduce the program with the least amount of distorion at whatever level required by the source and room, and from the least amount of drivers. Tom Danleys Synergy ought to be a monster for this.