Sustained, effectively high level listening is not the point, because as people have pointed out, the hearing system does get fatigued even when listening to live acoustic sound. This probably would be part of the body's natural, instinctive desire not to damage the ear mechanism - when you've had enough, you move out of earshot.
However, that should not prevent one aiming for the system to be able to merrily proceed at creating the quality at those sound levels - I, for one, do not sit in the supposed prime postion and "listen" to the system working, I'm otherwise occupied or moving around the house doing other things. Part of my brain is tuning into the music, whether I'm at the far end of the house, or directly in front of the speakers; and it needs to be 'right' in both those situations - just like having someone playing a quality piano in your home, you don't need to hunched up over the soundboard to experience pleasure from the sound, you get satisfaction from hearing the music taking place, wherever you happen to be ...
However, that should not prevent one aiming for the system to be able to merrily proceed at creating the quality at those sound levels - I, for one, do not sit in the supposed prime postion and "listen" to the system working, I'm otherwise occupied or moving around the house doing other things. Part of my brain is tuning into the music, whether I'm at the far end of the house, or directly in front of the speakers; and it needs to be 'right' in both those situations - just like having someone playing a quality piano in your home, you don't need to hunched up over the soundboard to experience pleasure from the sound, you get satisfaction from hearing the music taking place, wherever you happen to be ...
One thing causing me muchos listening fatigue is knowing the song will finish soon ! It's hard to enjoy the last moments of songs when I know it's going to be over soon 
It is not a question of dynamics per se, but the ability to work at high SPL that is the difference. e.g. a 1W system with 120dB dynamic range cannot reproduce a close-miked live, loud band convincingly, but a 500W system with a mere 90dB dynamic range will.
Too Much CAN Be Enough...
I used to run four stacked 12" 3 ways hanging off a 500W/ch clean (modded/tweaked) real horsepower PA amp.
Cd player connected directly with volume controls at max caused occasional momentary (inaudible) clip.
At the sound pressure level produced the likes of AC/DC (and other bands that I have mixed) sounded live, real, and in the room.
A soundcheck walk down the footpath reinforced this also.
Dead clean, dead loud, no ear bleeding, just serious sensation of POWER, and perfectly musical at the same time.
30 minutes of couch shaking involuntary toe tapping was sufficient 'fix' for the next week or so.
No fatigue, just satisfaction.
Dan.
I used to run four stacked 12" 3 ways hanging off a 500W/ch clean (modded/tweaked) real horsepower PA amp.
Cd player connected directly with volume controls at max caused occasional momentary (inaudible) clip.
At the sound pressure level produced the likes of AC/DC (and other bands that I have mixed) sounded live, real, and in the room.
A soundcheck walk down the footpath reinforced this also.
Dead clean, dead loud, no ear bleeding, just serious sensation of POWER, and perfectly musical at the same time.
30 minutes of couch shaking involuntary toe tapping was sufficient 'fix' for the next week or so.
No fatigue, just satisfaction.
Dan.
Short answer: any naim amplified system up to about 1982...I haven't heard one since. I got "listening fatigue ++ a splitting headache/earache after an hour or so at sensible volumes.
The brute went DC and took out my speakers...it, and pre-amp, went back to the factory and was sold without ever listening to it again! Next stop was a NYALMoscode hybrid and Counterpoint...now that was listenable to! Never had physical symptoms since the Naim combo.
The brute went DC and took out my speakers...it, and pre-amp, went back to the factory and was sold without ever listening to it again! Next stop was a NYALMoscode hybrid and Counterpoint...now that was listenable to! Never had physical symptoms since the Naim combo.
hi
this make sense and I understand now.
What can someone do to control the room, room treatment I guess? Or even room treatment cant get rid of this?
this make sense and I understand now.
What can someone do to control the room, room treatment I guess? Or even room treatment cant get rid of this?
Obviously there can be a number of things that causes listening fatigue.
But IMO that main causes are:
1. Room and acoustics
2. Speakers
A lot of audiophiles prefer tube amps or colored electronics and say it gives them less listening fatigue. In my opinion that's because that type of electronics are less true to the source (adding and/or distracting) and mainly is covering up flaws that more transparent sounding gear will reveal. So it's not that the electronics they are using are better objectively, but simply more forgiving of other issues which are almost always the room and speaker interaction.
But IMO that main causes are:
1. Room and acoustics
2. Speakers
A lot of audiophiles prefer tube amps or colored electronics and say it gives them less listening fatigue. In my opinion that's because that type of electronics are less true to the source (adding and/or distracting) and mainly is covering up flaws that more transparent sounding gear will reveal. So it's not that the electronics they are using are better objectively, but simply more forgiving of other issues which are almost always the room and speaker interaction.
As an audiophile who often prefers tube amps, I say NO. I find most transistor amps to be colored. Tubes give me a cleaner, more detailed sound. The crossover distortion and generous dose of high order harmonics in SS amps sounds fake to me, I just don't hear that in natural sounds. It can quickly lead to fatigue.
I don't draw a firm line in the sand, having heard tube amps that are annoying and transistor amps (and preamps) that are clean and smooth, but the characterizing of tubes as (audible) distortion generators and rose colored glass is false, IMO. And then of course there's MacIntosh. 😉
Sure. If you compare it to a bad transistor amp with crossover distortion. I'm talking however about a good and clean transistor compared to colored amps, which is often tube but not always.
It is fairly easy to reduce fatiguing high frequency "flutter echo" with absorptive material, but the low frequency will be relatively unaffected, which sounds unnatural, "dead" top, "live" bottom.
I have resigned myself to limiting SPL levels in small rooms.
Considering the hearing loss I already "enjoy", it is a decision easy to live with.
I find all electronics have a sonic signature (colored, some more than Others) choose your poison ..🙂
There is good and bad , going from less colored to most colored , the very best Toobs will hold its own to the very best SS , speaker load and required drive is the key ...
Choose your poison, i did and went SS, works form me with better reliability and less dicking around to play music ..
My point - of course - is that tube circuits aren't all syrupy sweet coloration machines, as so many SS fanboys like to make out. Some are, but so are some SS circuits. I have to say that in general, I find tube circuits less colored and less fatiguing than solid state.
It's easy to point out this or that particular device as good or bad, but can we really generalize over a whole class?
It's easy to point out this or that particular device as good or bad, but can we really generalize over a whole class?
The issue pano is that most feel all toobs are the same not realizing there are alot of bad toob amplifiers , same as SS. A bad toob will sound boring and dead , difficult to get listening fatique from one , not so with bad SS ...
Nice one, Dan ... 🙂
Yes, there are no "natural" limits to how loud, or realistic it can sound at high levels, it all comes down to the competence of the equipment. Problems arise because amps start falling to pieces, and also one's hearing system is capable of hearing deeper into the sound, all the failings that could be ignored at low volumes are now too obvious, and are not tolerable for any decent period of time ...
One remarkable thing I've learnt is how amazingly competent nearly all speakers are, I have yet to find one that is sufficiently cheap and trashy that it can't deliver good sound if you give it half a chance. It's always been the limitations of the power amp and the electronics that have crippled the sound - feed the driver an extremely clean signal, give it a good workout to loosen up the suspension, and you can run something like AC/DC at clean, deafening levels with no problem at all ...
There are hard figures that show that not to be possible. Your problem may be that AC/DC is recorded very compressed and distortion is a feature of its sound, and you are not able to tell that your Aldi TV's speaker is exceeding its limits. The "workout" you describe is the acclimatisation stage where you familiarise yourself with the speaker's limitations and then, when your ears have adapted, you spin a mental narrative that says you have "loosened up" its suspension sufficiently.
There is thermal compression, and Xmax limits - they seem to be the main "worries". AC/DC only uses very reasonable, old style types of compression; a band like Foo Fighters is quite appalling in its use of volume squashing, impossible to play at anything except very moderate levels. The Aldi easily signals when the power supply reaches what it's capable of, plus the cabinet is not particularly brilliant, it says "enough!" before the speaker does.
It is unfortunate that the response now is always that it must be in the listener's head - it's become the easy answer when people don't want to delve further. With the HT system I was using earlier, there was an excellent test track - actually intended for measuring room acoustics - that I used for conditioning the speakers at one stage, by putting on continual repeat. From a cold start, at high levels, there was an unpleasant type of rubbing, resonant distortion coming from one speaker at a particular frequency, which over a period of part of an hour slowly improved until it finally completely disappeared -- here was a "hit you over the head" obvious artifact that the deafest person would be able to hear, which could be 'conditioned' away ...
It is unfortunate that the response now is always that it must be in the listener's head - it's become the easy answer when people don't want to delve further. With the HT system I was using earlier, there was an excellent test track - actually intended for measuring room acoustics - that I used for conditioning the speakers at one stage, by putting on continual repeat. From a cold start, at high levels, there was an unpleasant type of rubbing, resonant distortion coming from one speaker at a particular frequency, which over a period of part of an hour slowly improved until it finally completely disappeared -- here was a "hit you over the head" obvious artifact that the deafest person would be able to hear, which could be 'conditioned' away ...
I think listener fatigue comes from caring more about the gear than the music. All recordings are not created equal. All systems are not created equal. All music is. You'll have your like and dislikes, but listening to your likes should not be fatiguing.