Not sure if my experience will add anything new to this thread, nevertheless I post it!
About three years back I used to listen to my amp through an open baffle (MJ King's) from an AIWA diskman. I was happy. Then I purchased ( I do not know why) Marantz cd5003 cd player. Suddenly the whole world changed and my room got filled with all kind of new sounds (frequencies), to tell the truth I did not like it, it sounded too harsh! With time I started to realize that I was missing so much in the diskman. Now when I play the diskman it seems to produce only 70% of the frequencies and seems dull....
My 2 cents..
Roushon
About three years back I used to listen to my amp through an open baffle (MJ King's) from an AIWA diskman. I was happy. Then I purchased ( I do not know why) Marantz cd5003 cd player. Suddenly the whole world changed and my room got filled with all kind of new sounds (frequencies), to tell the truth I did not like it, it sounded too harsh! With time I started to realize that I was missing so much in the diskman. Now when I play the diskman it seems to produce only 70% of the frequencies and seems dull....
My 2 cents..
Roushon
I had an Arcam alpha 10 amplifier that got harsh at higher volumes (IIRC it was more in the midrange) and a Naim 102 preamp and 180 power amp that had a harsh treble.
My old Naim CD 3.5 was great until I ran it through a revealing amp, with the better amp the midrange got a touch harsh.
My old Naim CD 3.5 was great until I ran it through a revealing amp, with the better amp the midrange got a touch harsh.
In my case, my hearing has gone above 8 - 9 Khz but I can still tell when the highs are not being produced. I don't understand this. The other thing is that music is, or at any rate I believe should be, an emotional event. What characteristics of the whole audio chain convey this feeling I don't know. I do know that a lot of modern audio gear I've heard does not do this well and I understand why some who have been around for awhile like the old altecs and gear of that era. The above is the issue I have with a lot of what goes on in these forums. If you spend all your time just listening for faults and not getting involved in the music then you are bound, I think, to get "fatigue".
What does it for me, what I like, is ability to produce the dynamic range of the music as closely as possible and also realistic volumes for the gendre of music being played back.
jamikl
What does it for me, what I like, is ability to produce the dynamic range of the music as closely as possible and also realistic volumes for the gendre of music being played back.
jamikl
You know when you've got it right because you can come in from a hard days work, with a headache and listen to music at high volume without it making the headache worse. But not only that, the music should still be involving and alive, without making you go to sleep.
There are many things that cause fatigue. Mainly, if more sound than natural is contained, it will cause fatigue. The cause can be anywhere in the system.
Agreed. I dont know what causes fatigue (exactly) but valve power amps banish it. Yes they may have floppy bass and restricted highs (in some cases). Yes they may well be "rose tinted" but a good set of valve monoblocks are a sure cure. I have not owned low power B300B's etc but higher powered class AB's such as VTL.
Low level distortion introduced via a myriad of subtle "weaknesses" throughout the system. As mentioned or implied by the comments of some others here this masks or obscures the much quieter, finer detail which should flesh out the complete acoustic picture of the recorded musical event, making it much harder for the ear/brain to register a convincing soundscape.
Overall treble quality is key here, a tweeter that draws attention to itself, that you can easily "see" working means unsatisfactory, tiring sound ...
Overall treble quality is key here, a tweeter that draws attention to itself, that you can easily "see" working means unsatisfactory, tiring sound ...
I am 45 yo and have tinnitus.
Listening fatigue is a reality of life for me.
It has nothing to do with not being able to relax, sit back and listen.
I can't stand most dome tweeter and CD applications.
I also find modern hifi cone drivers non involving and non musical.
IMO speakers are the biggest offenders for listening fatigue.
Poor digital systems can also be very bad. But when done well, digital is not an offender. I use class D amps. Jitter can be problematic. But recent digital solutions are low jitter and the end result is usually very good.
I am working on a new speaker project based around B&G Neo8s. This is one of rare non-CD drivers which allow a crossover-less 1-5k region without much compromise (no break-ups, flat impedance, good power handling, reasonable efficiency, manageable dispersion).
Listening fatigue is a reality of life for me.
It has nothing to do with not being able to relax, sit back and listen.
I can't stand most dome tweeter and CD applications.
I also find modern hifi cone drivers non involving and non musical.
IMO speakers are the biggest offenders for listening fatigue.
Poor digital systems can also be very bad. But when done well, digital is not an offender. I use class D amps. Jitter can be problematic. But recent digital solutions are low jitter and the end result is usually very good.
I am working on a new speaker project based around B&G Neo8s. This is one of rare non-CD drivers which allow a crossover-less 1-5k region without much compromise (no break-ups, flat impedance, good power handling, reasonable efficiency, manageable dispersion).
I think sound speed also plays a role in listening fatigue. I think it will takes ~130 Micro seconds (I'm not sure about this number) to transfer the sound to brain and process it, if a speaker and amplifier could have response speed (rise time and settle time) of faster than 130 Micro, then there would be no delay between every single frequency so the ear won't get tired.
Couple things to try
1) Cut caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol- MANY tinitus cases are cured by doing just that one step.
2) Take it a step further and convert to a more natural food diet- fruits, veggies, and meats, primarily.
You'd be surprised just how many modern afflictions are related to the stuff we put in our bodies. Of course, I'm a hypocrite of the highest order, but I had a lot lower allergy and other issues (like swelling on my gimp knee) when I was on a natural living kick.
Slowly getting back there.
thin sound, and the opposite, booming sound
phase and 'timing' issues
sometimes you can barely hear the rythm section
must be a weird rock band with no drummer or bass player
phase and 'timing' issues
sometimes you can barely hear the rythm section
must be a weird rock band with no drummer or bass player
Although I haven't done any experiments to verify I would also say phase issues. Annecdotal because the situation improved dramatically when I revised my crossover. The problem is that more than one variable changed. I suspect a combination of Tweeter IM distortion and phase issues were the main problem though (with probably some midbass cone breakup for good measure).
Interestingly I swapped in a cheapo classD T amp and couldn't listen for more than a few minutes. It sounded good, but within a short time my ears were hurting, I've no explanation for that one, other than it had a rising frequency response in the high end (above what I can now hear, which is about 13Khz max).
Tony.
Interestingly I swapped in a cheapo classD T amp and couldn't listen for more than a few minutes. It sounded good, but within a short time my ears were hurting, I've no explanation for that one, other than it had a rising frequency response in the high end (above what I can now hear, which is about 13Khz max).
Tony.
Listening to the system, straining to hear defects, and not listening to the music. Almost impossible to avoid for a DIY audio enthusiast!
The worst listening fatigue I ever experienced was a Status Quo gig at Glasgow Apollo theatre in 1977. It was massively too loud. It was in the days before regulations came in to limit sound levels.
I was stood behind a pillar to try to limit the sound level but I still couldn't hear for 3 days afterwards !
So I guess volume has its place to play in listener fatigue.
I was stood behind a pillar to try to limit the sound level but I still couldn't hear for 3 days afterwards !
So I guess volume has its place to play in listener fatigue.
Eleven years later...
Eleven years later - Jesus and Mary Chain (at Canterbury Court) Feedback played at the limit of the PA's capabilities.
Eleven years later - Jesus and Mary Chain (at Canterbury Court) Feedback played at the limit of the PA's capabilities.
Those are all good. Add to that:
Bad source:
- TT/tape wow and flutter
- poor, distant miking
- noisy recording
- bad/out of tune singing (so common)
- out of tune playing
- raucous instrument sounds
- nasty vocals
- etc
Boring source:
- low dynanic range
- stupid lyrics
- etc
External factors:
- room noise
- people noise
- kids
- dogs
- hunger, thirst, bladder, etc
- remembering you forgot something important
- etc.
I could go on, but I'm getting fatigued.
There's a common belief that the ear is insensitive to phase, and from that it is assumed that the phase shifting caused by speakers is OK (as long as the drivers' phases match through the crossover). But although listeners can't necessarily hear the phase shift when tested in DBTs, might it induce listening fatigue over the long term? (Of course the enlightened audiophile uses DSP actives and can therefore eliminate the effect anyway 🙂 )