Earl: I agree with everything you say except that I don't think its a matter of age per se, rather than 'audiophiles getting older'. As audiophiles age and become more experienced in their listening habits, they are less likely to tolerate badly recorded music on bad playback systems. This is not to say the rest of the population behaves like this, most normal music lovers I think go on to enjoy music into their old age as they have always done.
A case in point is my father in-law, an Irishman of 74yrs who loves his music, always has and always will. He never couches music in terms of distortion and frequency spectrums, its about the lyrics-the performer-the tune- the melody-whether it makes his toes tap etc. A lot of audiophiles have lost touch with the sheer joy of just listening for the pleasure of it.
Mind you, this same person is blown away by the clarity and expression of my hi-end music system, so there does seem to be some merit to our madness!
Regards,
Steve M.
A case in point is my father in-law, an Irishman of 74yrs who loves his music, always has and always will. He never couches music in terms of distortion and frequency spectrums, its about the lyrics-the performer-the tune- the melody-whether it makes his toes tap etc. A lot of audiophiles have lost touch with the sheer joy of just listening for the pleasure of it.
Mind you, this same person is blown away by the clarity and expression of my hi-end music system, so there does seem to be some merit to our madness!
Regards,
Steve M.
Steve M said:
Yup. Personally, if I had a spare £200, I would much rather spend it on new music rather than upgrading or tweaking my systems. Much more rewarding to me personally. I also spend much of my day listening to a cheap £30 DAB radio rather than a mega system, yes, it's nice to get home and turn the main rig on, but I could live without it.
edit: Oh, and I'm in my forties. 😉
Re: What Causes Listening Fatigue?
I find that raised levels (or poor performance) in this region particularly exacerbates any other problems you might be having. So even if your speaker is excellent, raised levels in this region and poor mastering will cause fatigue.
Taking a leaf out of John's (MJL21193) book, try using a GEQ (or better yet a PEQ) to reduce the levels a few dB in this region and listen how much less tiring it is to listen to. OK, it might not be strictly fidelitous, but it'll give you an idea where the fatiguing elements come from...
And, you don't have to be an audiophool to suffer from fatigue. Try going to any live (amplified) music venue where the FOH engineer is becoming deaf in the high (and upper-mid) frequencies and check out how many people decide to leave the venue for a while and then go back in.
Lynn Olson said:
I find that raised levels (or poor performance) in this region particularly exacerbates any other problems you might be having. So even if your speaker is excellent, raised levels in this region and poor mastering will cause fatigue.
Taking a leaf out of John's (MJL21193) book, try using a GEQ (or better yet a PEQ) to reduce the levels a few dB in this region and listen how much less tiring it is to listen to. OK, it might not be strictly fidelitous, but it'll give you an idea where the fatiguing elements come from...
And, you don't have to be an audiophool to suffer from fatigue. Try going to any live (amplified) music venue where the FOH engineer is becoming deaf in the high (and upper-mid) frequencies and check out how many people decide to leave the venue for a while and then go back in.
1~5 kHz is a difficult region of the spectrum in most speaker designs. The ear is reaching peak sensitivity for noise, distortion, and peaky (resonant) response, and the midbass and tweeter are getting in trouble as well.
Direct-radiator tweeter IM distortion rises very rapidly below the typical 2~4 kHz crossover point, and horn-loaded tweeters are prone to "honk" if the horn is misdesigned or the crossover poorly chosen (or both).
The midbass driver enters a region of multiple standing waves, resonances, and complex changes in directivity above 1~2 kHz, and this only gets worse with increasing frequency.
In other words, both midbass and tweeter drivers are at their performance limits in the critical 1~5 kHz region, and this is unfortunately the region of peak audibility for errors. A half-dB equalization error at 200 Hz or 10 kHz is barely audible, but is quite noticeable in the 1~5 kHz region.
In general, peaks are much more noticeable than dips in the 1~5 kHz region, thus the utility of intentionally designing a small dip so the inevitable up-and-downs of the frequency response don't rise above the rest of the spectrum, drawing attention to themselves. The designer can also take the converse approach, first used to great commercial success in the JBL L100, of intentionally emphasizing a peaky and elevated midrange in this region, setting the speaker apart from its competitors.
Put in the inevitable cost-cutting and casual crossover design, and even well-behaved and well-damped drivers start to sound colored and distorted. If cheaper and/or more resonant drivers are used, a sophisticated and expensive crossover may not be able to rescue them.
Add in a deliberately distorted CD or MP3, even small problems in the 1~5 kHz region lead to unbearable harshness - and the problems of most mass-market speakers couldn't in all fairness be described as "small", but quite severe. Thus the screechy sound we hear so often in restaurants, malls, and other public places.
Surprisingly, jukeboxes of the 1950's were better designed for the purpose of background music. They were gently rolled-off above 1 kHz, and had built-in compressors so the record-industry loudness wars (for 45 rpm singles) didn't bother patrons in restaurants and bars. Nowadays we have cheap and resonant metal-dome tweeters (with elevated HF response) in even the worst speakers, background PA systems no longer use compression, and as mentioned earlier, the digital source material is intentionally clipped and distorted.
Direct-radiator tweeter IM distortion rises very rapidly below the typical 2~4 kHz crossover point, and horn-loaded tweeters are prone to "honk" if the horn is misdesigned or the crossover poorly chosen (or both).
The midbass driver enters a region of multiple standing waves, resonances, and complex changes in directivity above 1~2 kHz, and this only gets worse with increasing frequency.
In other words, both midbass and tweeter drivers are at their performance limits in the critical 1~5 kHz region, and this is unfortunately the region of peak audibility for errors. A half-dB equalization error at 200 Hz or 10 kHz is barely audible, but is quite noticeable in the 1~5 kHz region.
In general, peaks are much more noticeable than dips in the 1~5 kHz region, thus the utility of intentionally designing a small dip so the inevitable up-and-downs of the frequency response don't rise above the rest of the spectrum, drawing attention to themselves. The designer can also take the converse approach, first used to great commercial success in the JBL L100, of intentionally emphasizing a peaky and elevated midrange in this region, setting the speaker apart from its competitors.
Put in the inevitable cost-cutting and casual crossover design, and even well-behaved and well-damped drivers start to sound colored and distorted. If cheaper and/or more resonant drivers are used, a sophisticated and expensive crossover may not be able to rescue them.
Add in a deliberately distorted CD or MP3, even small problems in the 1~5 kHz region lead to unbearable harshness - and the problems of most mass-market speakers couldn't in all fairness be described as "small", but quite severe. Thus the screechy sound we hear so often in restaurants, malls, and other public places.
Surprisingly, jukeboxes of the 1950's were better designed for the purpose of background music. They were gently rolled-off above 1 kHz, and had built-in compressors so the record-industry loudness wars (for 45 rpm singles) didn't bother patrons in restaurants and bars. Nowadays we have cheap and resonant metal-dome tweeters (with elevated HF response) in even the worst speakers, background PA systems no longer use compression, and as mentioned earlier, the digital source material is intentionally clipped and distorted.
One thing I think should be corrected is that the term listener fatigue has only come in during the last twenty or so years. I am aware of it being used in the early mid seventies, usually in regard to the Kef T27 tweeter!
I find excessive sibilance and the sound of massed violins as often used in the backing to popular singers is the most fatiguing but do not know if this is a high frequency speaker fault, too much distortion up around 5Khz or just very poorly recorded music. I listen to all types of music although my preference is for small group jazz. ie trios and quartets. The recording quality of a lot of CDs is abysmal.
jamikl
I find excessive sibilance and the sound of massed violins as often used in the backing to popular singers is the most fatiguing but do not know if this is a high frequency speaker fault, too much distortion up around 5Khz or just very poorly recorded music. I listen to all types of music although my preference is for small group jazz. ie trios and quartets. The recording quality of a lot of CDs is abysmal.
jamikl
pinkmouse said:
Yep, a lot of my listening is via internet radio hardly hi-fi. However it is made more bearable by playing it through a simple class A valve amp which at least doesn't make it any worse.
pinkmouse said:
BBC Radio 6 then 🙂
Lately, I have been listening to Jackson Brown's latest acoustic CD, Vol 1 & 2. Even though it's acoustic music, I don't believe I have ever heard acoustic music with so much "weight" in it, so many "bass" all around the voice and the instruments. Yes, I like it very much. I wonder what make this CD sounds so good, so unfatiguing? Is it due solely to how it's recorded?
russel said:
On constantly, 'till they moved Gid and put that idiotic halfwit on in the mornings. 😡
Now it's a mixture of Radio 4 and Planet Rock.
I just was at a live concert of some weird electro music act and i have to say, spl which is so high that you cant hear your own voice definitely causes listening fatique 
I am no experts but I have noticed a few things that seem to indicate a couple of suspects.
Complexity: Complex amplifier circuits and crossovers seem to be a problem. I notice that older amps (even solid state) with simpler circuitry and over sized PS components cause less fatigue. I suspect that complex circuitry and the heavy handed feedback that usually accompanies these designs probably make for some nasty high order and IM distortion products. Wimpy power supplies also affect dynamics in a negative way.
My Onkyo HT receiver is noticably more fatiguing than my 70's vintage Sony stereo receiver. The Sony weighs as much as the Onkyo yet is spec'ed at only 55Wx2 while the Onkyo is more like 80Wx5.
Lack of dynamics: Speaker systems that are so inefficient and congested that it take tens (or worse hundreds) of watts to get realistic peaks out of them seem to compress the dynamics.
Also box speakers seem to be more tiring and less realistic than OBs. OBs even with relatively inexpensive drivers seem to be less like listening to a stereo and more like listening to live music.
mike
Complexity: Complex amplifier circuits and crossovers seem to be a problem. I notice that older amps (even solid state) with simpler circuitry and over sized PS components cause less fatigue. I suspect that complex circuitry and the heavy handed feedback that usually accompanies these designs probably make for some nasty high order and IM distortion products. Wimpy power supplies also affect dynamics in a negative way.
My Onkyo HT receiver is noticably more fatiguing than my 70's vintage Sony stereo receiver. The Sony weighs as much as the Onkyo yet is spec'ed at only 55Wx2 while the Onkyo is more like 80Wx5.
Lack of dynamics: Speaker systems that are so inefficient and congested that it take tens (or worse hundreds) of watts to get realistic peaks out of them seem to compress the dynamics.
Also box speakers seem to be more tiring and less realistic than OBs. OBs even with relatively inexpensive drivers seem to be less like listening to a stereo and more like listening to live music.
mike
I have experimented a lot with my 3way speaker crossover and everytime when "timing" went wrong I got very stressed
When I listen to loud music my wife comes in and yells at me. I get listener fatigue from the stress.
dnsey said:
I agree with a lot of the sentiments above. As I've got older, I've noticed that as well as getting listening fatigue with HiFi, I get fatigue in noisy environments. So, for example, straining to listen to a telephone conversation when the kids are screaming in the background, or trying to follow a conversation in the pub when there's background music... these kind of situations actually make me feel physically uncomfortable. It could be due to hearing damage. I've listened to my fair share of loud music, and now have tinitus (top-tip: avoid caffeine completely to reduce tinitus!). I know someone whose tinitus was so bad that he could hear intermodulation distortion from pure sinwaves, which shattered his ability to enjoy playing his own musical instruments. So I wonder whether even mild tinitus can produce intermodulation products that just make things sound uncomfortable...
Many people I know started listening to less music with the advent of CDs in the eighties. I'm not even thinking of jumping on that topic but I can still listen to LPs all day without feeling burned out. After a few CDs I usually find something else to do. There may or may not be a correlation.
Listening fatigue could very well come from hering impairment IMO. Damaged hearing does not only mean that the minimum levels of perception rise it can also mean that one is annoyed or hurt easier by large SPLs (sometimes even by not so large SPLs: so called hyperacusis).
I assume that many amongst us belong to those who have listened for many hours at high SPLs as well.
Regards
Charles
Recordings that are not interesting. ie compressed, poor performance, poor bandwith , miking, mixing, mastering ect..
Any nasty wide or narrow peaks in response of the speaker, lack of bass or foundation in playback system, too narrow radiation or beaming.
Any nasty wide or narrow peaks in response of the speaker, lack of bass or foundation in playback system, too narrow radiation or beaming.
Yeah, over use of compression does it for me. Can't listen for long to that.
Though it can work OK as low level background music.
Though it can work OK as low level background music.