Thanks for attempting to keep it on topic 🙂 As you say it starts (and ends) with the music. Easy for me to accept all the clicks and pops as part of the music. YouTube WARNING high grainI'll follow this definition
because it gives attributes stolen from the musical language, and applies it to a ...machine.
Better to start from music. Music itself steals the time, puts a pace, creates and manipulates rhythm. The so-called goose-bumps are not caused by the high volume but come from inside the brain that controls the vascular system, adiabatic style with frowning ( if it sounds grainy) or tears, when it's-so-natural! Also sweat, lots of sweat for arriving to the goal
So goose-bumps are stopped by grainy sound.
Indeed, a grain, like a grain of dust in the micro groove that encounters the stylus of the pick-up at moderate velocity, it steals the information ( it provokes also a Toc that masks) and makes the stylus lose time in following the abnormal contour. I mean- a grain!
For a complete goose-bumps theory formation, we should consider the sebaceous cells and the hair, for completeness.
Excellent, but first is how to minimize confounders. I'd use a couple of single point sources and nothing else to begin, use those acceptable to you. Something wideband, a Scanspeak 10F/8424 comes to mind. I'd like to listen at low to moderate volume about 6-9 feet away.
I am not Johnego and here is my 2 cents on what I listen for :
- uneven frequency response, then you may want to correct glaring issues with an equalizer or other ways of compensation
- how vocal sibilance in reproduced
- how midrange is reproduced
- tightness and amount of bass (not much for small driver like the 10F/8424, but note perceived difference in reproduction)
- localization includes how the soundstage is formed and 3d positions of vocalist and instruments
- strange movement of apparent location of instruments and voices on transients, some amp exhibit movement of apparent source towards the listener on transients
- listen in a relaxed manner to get the gestalt of what is being evaluated for a few days or weeks
You'll rearrange and make up your own listening list later according to aspects you find important. 🙂
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But don't you think it's idiotic to think that the scientists only use test signals to test audio?
They start and end with music to.
I suppose they have to, to try to keep everyone happy 🙂 Depending on what you are testing, music can have too many variables, not least of which it's even more of a construct of the brain than using test signals could ever be.
Some artefacts are way easier to detect with sines than with music. Harmonic distortion for example.
But no scientist will test soundstage depth and width with sines.
But no scientist will test soundstage depth and width with sines.
So tell us, how did you improve your amplifiers? Did you call for a DBT panel for every choice made all of the way? Good for you, you must be filthy rich. Most of us lowly commoners do not have access to that kind of resources. Hopefully your free of grain amplifier somehow becomes accessible for the rest of us. 😀
Not sure about this because phase shift of fundamental and generated harmonics vs frequency could be indicative.
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Why not? As a sound engineer you would know how sounds can be manipulated in 3D space by using a combination of level, timing, phase and pitch
For customers like me, a simple personal ABX test is enough to decide if a product is worth my money.
I don't experience grainy sound in any of my systems and can listen for hours and hours without fatigue to all systems. I use very cheap amps and even have set at home (although the tubes are only used for fun)
My level of 'sound engineer' permitted me to choose if applying Dolby B, or C or nothing when recording a cassette 😛
Playing with 3 heads tape machines permitted to play with level and support- Ferro, chrome, metal.
Putting emphasis ( Dolby) and playing without de-emphasis opened a world of grain! 😱🙄
I quitted using cassettes about 10 years ago.
Probably I used to confuse the grain of the cassette with the grain of the system, i.e. one masked another and I preferred the home-made one.
The 'micro' and the 'macro' problems probably go like that: when the masking is inevitable to be not noted and when it's subtle.
Playing with 3 heads tape machines permitted to play with level and support- Ferro, chrome, metal.
Putting emphasis ( Dolby) and playing without de-emphasis opened a world of grain! 😱🙄
I quitted using cassettes about 10 years ago.
Probably I used to confuse the grain of the cassette with the grain of the system, i.e. one masked another and I preferred the home-made one.
The 'micro' and the 'macro' problems probably go like that: when the masking is inevitable to be not noted and when it's subtle.
May be they do? I don't know, it was a question 😕 You said none of them do, I was querying that, and wondering why not, but I suppose it depends on what you mean by scientist.
I bought my last amp and speakers during my freshman year, built mine afterwards. I described to you what I did to evaluate a development of my build, from cheap lm1875 to Pass A40 and several others in between. I am currently not in the business of audio, it's a hobby.
I use very cheap amps, because I can't hear a difference between cheap and ridiculous experience amps in ABX tests.
Although I can clearly hear a difference between my quite expensive tube amps and my cheap ss amps when driven hard. The tunes sound worse.
Diy people share and discuss. Some are scientific, some are not. You want scientific? Fine, no problem, you are allowed to do scientific, nobody tells you to do otherwise.
Good for you. You have found the end of your road. No need for any further searches. Saves time and money. I also currently use the $15 LM1875 amp I built. But unfortunately for me, I still hear a difference, the search and the hobby lives on.
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If someone comes up with evidence that other amps sound better and I can verify it, I will change in a heartbeat.
Unfortunately I’m not at a acceptable level of objective testing......I’m trying to learn but don’t foresee my results being taken seriously anyhow.
I’d like to find someone within driving distance that has objective testing skill/experience willing to investigate my subjective queries, teaching it as we go.
Could be a learning experience for all involved, Heck i’d Even be willing to pay for that kind of education.
Exactly
I agree with what you listen for and my lp is roughly 10-11 feet, but disagree with the volume level.....I actually test by how loud I can make a particular track before it’s unpleasant. I have about a dozen test tracks of suitable recording quality that I can get up to 105 db whole track avg@lp peaks to 114db cleanly!
I believe this to be the limits of my equipment but at these levels there are things happening that cannot be heard at moderate volumes.
Disclaimer: I don’t condone trying this as it’s quite dangerous and I rarely ever go to these extremes. Most of my testing is done at 98-99db@lp (still probably too loud as most are concerned) to me feeling the music is just as important as hearing it.
Conjecture, but I think a lot of what i’m doing is matching this as a system, room,lp. To get to the next level everything has to jive....I suppose I’m kindly just human room correction (HRC)! 😛
😉
@ Scott
A scientist is anyone that follows the scientific method.
That’s the exact protocol I follow but it’s all processed upstairs......apparently though the instinctual processing of data is not valid although I’m quite adept at it. Smart Data vs Intuition: who will win in the battle of decision-making? | Central Test.
Maybe the control boards are better left to the youngins! 😀 (j/k.....couldn’t resist)
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a soundstage of sinewaves? Easier just to use music.....dvd would probably be best to listen without picture then look and verify placement after listening.
Yessiree!