Thanks, teachjava for the added photos. That makes this thread MUCH BETTER. 😎
I suspect the great speakers always had a trick up their sleeve. Maybe the hugely underrated cone tweeters, maybe great phase alignment. Maybe just 3-way goodness. You did know it works better than two way, didn't you? 😀
Here's a hugely popular speaker that sold by the truckload on the 1980s. The Celestion Ditton 15XR.
I even have the crossover for you, slightly upgraded with an MKP cap from the non-polar original. 🙂
I never thought much of these budget jobbies, TBH. I was listening to three ways by then. They were harsh on the midrange, though you'd think they were OK if you'd never heard better. The modelling shows why.
I suspect the great speakers always had a trick up their sleeve. Maybe the hugely underrated cone tweeters, maybe great phase alignment. Maybe just 3-way goodness. You did know it works better than two way, didn't you? 😀
Here's a hugely popular speaker that sold by the truckload on the 1980s. The Celestion Ditton 15XR.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I even have the crossover for you, slightly upgraded with an MKP cap from the non-polar original. 🙂
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I never thought much of these budget jobbies, TBH. I was listening to three ways by then. They were harsh on the midrange, though you'd think they were OK if you'd never heard better. The modelling shows why.
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Hi,
That would be the DM4's and each driver in them goes for more than $40.
rgds, sreten.
You can read Troels Gravesen on the Spendor BC1 and by implication, The B&W DM4. Spendor BC1
The trick up their sleeve is the 2.5kHz crossover available with Celestion HF1300 and the 8" bextrene bass, which by then had a PVC surround. KEF were using 3.5kHz on the 104ab, which was pushing the 8" bass higher than it is good at. The Coles 4001 plastic supertweeter overcomes the HF1300 tweeter's poor top end.
You'd struggle to find ANYTHING like the HF1300 these days. Probably better to add a proper 4-5" midrange. Which brings me on to my old all-plastic BBC style Chartwell PM400 monitor speakers. Very smooth, but like all bextrene speakers, ATTACK and SLAM they didn't have...🙂
This is the more modern take on polypropylene coned speakers, from Spendor's Classic range using modern fabric SEAS tweeters:
The trick up their sleeve is the 2.5kHz crossover available with Celestion HF1300 and the 8" bextrene bass, which by then had a PVC surround. KEF were using 3.5kHz on the 104ab, which was pushing the 8" bass higher than it is good at. The Coles 4001 plastic supertweeter overcomes the HF1300 tweeter's poor top end.
You'd struggle to find ANYTHING like the HF1300 these days. Probably better to add a proper 4-5" midrange. Which brings me on to my old all-plastic BBC style Chartwell PM400 monitor speakers. Very smooth, but like all bextrene speakers, ATTACK and SLAM they didn't have...🙂
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is the more modern take on polypropylene coned speakers, from Spendor's Classic range using modern fabric SEAS tweeters:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I got some JBL Decade 10's, found 'em cheap 20 years ago and had 'em refoamed. I thought they were great back then, but more recently I got some lower end Infinitys and I no longer think the JBL tweeter sound is that good, they sound a little muted or something. I never had those foam rings around the tweeters (shown in first two pics, post #14, apparently they fell off before I got 'em), do those make a big difference?
Hi,
That would be the DM4's and each driver in them goes for more than $40.
rgds, sreten.
Seriously, the dynaco a25 was better the the dm4 when i compared
Hi,
I never said I rated the DM4's. The Celestion HF1300 sold bucket loads
as the tweeter in the original Ditton 15. Nowadays you wouldn't have a
hope in hell of selling a tweeter that dies at 14KHz. Interestingly the
early BC1's only gained the Coles supertweeter because it effectively
made them cheaper, something about being a 3 way it could be sold
as a professional speaker and thus not subject to purchase tax.
Still by all accounts the HF1300 sounded good, and probably the best
BC1-u-like is the Rogers Studio 1 with detuned foam lined ports.
Unlike the BC1 its bass powerhandling is very impressive.
rgds, sreten.
I never said I rated the DM4's. The Celestion HF1300 sold bucket loads
as the tweeter in the original Ditton 15. Nowadays you wouldn't have a
hope in hell of selling a tweeter that dies at 14KHz. Interestingly the
early BC1's only gained the Coles supertweeter because it effectively
made them cheaper, something about being a 3 way it could be sold
as a professional speaker and thus not subject to purchase tax.
Still by all accounts the HF1300 sounded good, and probably the best
BC1-u-like is the Rogers Studio 1 with detuned foam lined ports.
Unlike the BC1 its bass powerhandling is very impressive.
rgds, sreten.
no I know you didnt said you rated them, I was just saying. I began my journey into hifi with minimus 7 and dynaco a 25 and when I got the DM4's, I was CERTAIN, based on their legendary status to be much better then the A25 but I was really surprised to actually prefer the A25 over the DM4. The Sp1 is also a speaker I couldnt understand all the fuss about.
The best vintage speaker I have heard is definitely the Tannoy monitor red 15, stunning sound, huge sound, a really mindblowing speaker. I dont even think that my current three way is still touching the honestly magical presentation it offers. not the most detailed, but the ooomph and the presence is simply magic.
why is the Celestion Ditton 15XR can be found for so cheap? Are they at the same level of quad and tannoy??
HaHa, back on-topic... People were saying they liked the Dynaco A25. Which, of course, is still available in an updated version by SEAS:
SEAS A26 Kit
It's the outside pair of speakers here:
This speaker is actually very retro altogether. The Old Goodmans Mezzo was very similar down to the big SEAS soft dome, and if you go further back to the 50's and 60's, the standard big speaker was a 10" bass running full range with a 3" cone tweeter running off a single capacitor. All in a big closed box.
These sort of speakers work very well with valve amps for some reason. AllenB and I have reminisced about how RIGHT they could sound. A bit of a mystery really. It makes no sense! 😀
SEAS A26 Kit
It's the outside pair of speakers here:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This speaker is actually very retro altogether. The Old Goodmans Mezzo was very similar down to the big SEAS soft dome, and if you go further back to the 50's and 60's, the standard big speaker was a 10" bass running full range with a 3" cone tweeter running off a single capacitor. All in a big closed box.
These sort of speakers work very well with valve amps for some reason. AllenB and I have reminisced about how RIGHT they could sound. A bit of a mystery really. It makes no sense! 😀
Wharfedale SFB/3...Gilbert Briggs response to the Quad ESL-57...equal to the Quads in almost every level and superior to them in LF response. Much better imaging too IMO. Sorry can't find my pics of these right now..they are here on DIYaudio in some thread somewhere.
Bozak B-4000s (AlNiCo versions)..."to die for" mids courtesy of 5" rubber coated aluminum cone. Superb HF array of 6 x 2" cone tweeters and lots of LF kick via 2X12 Woofs with 10lb plus motors.
Tannoy Monitor Gold 12"...sold long ago...a fact I have come to regret.
Yamaha NS-690ii...another sleeper IMO...superb craftsmanship without the insanely bloated price of the later big brother NS-1000s...and for some inexplicable reason superb with my low-power SET amps.
Bozak B-4000s (AlNiCo versions)..."to die for" mids courtesy of 5" rubber coated aluminum cone. Superb HF array of 6 x 2" cone tweeters and lots of LF kick via 2X12 Woofs with 10lb plus motors.
Tannoy Monitor Gold 12"...sold long ago...a fact I have come to regret.
Yamaha NS-690ii...another sleeper IMO...superb craftsmanship without the insanely bloated price of the later big brother NS-1000s...and for some inexplicable reason superb with my low-power SET amps.
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I came across a set of JBL L-300's and bought them! Owned a set of AR3a's when they first came out and traded them, 25 years later bought another set in wonderful condition and gave them to my son -- his daughter put her finger through the grill cloth!
Whardale had something similar -- W60 -- if you can find one with good surrounds (or resurround them), these are fantastic devices.
dave
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Interesting. Just out of curiosity, could you build better for the same price? For example, I paid $100.00 for my most recent set of vintage Polk Audio SDA 2B Monitors (which I bought just two weeks ago), and I paid less than that for the JBL L36's I bought last year (I had to re-foam the woofers on the JBL's, but still came in at around $85.00 total cost). Is it possible to build a better set of speakers from scratch (all materials included) for $100 (or less in the case of the JBL's)?
I ask this in all seriousness because I'm still relatively new to DIY speakers and am far more familiar with vintage speakers than "today's standard." If I can build a set of speakers that can better my Polk Audio's or JBL's in all respects for the same or a comparable price then I know what I'm going to be getting for Christmas this year (I'm actually quite serious here as I'm itching to try my hand at building a set of speakers).
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I was quite taken by the Altec Barcelona's my next door neighbor had.
The midrange was very pleasing. He sold them for nickels. My girlfriend didn't want such huge speakers or I'd have been all over them. The woofer surrounds were shot though upon inspection at the time of sale. He bought some high dollar (euro's actually) new speakers (slim towers, can't remember the make) but they couldn't match the midrange of the Altecs i.m.h.o.
The midrange was very pleasing. He sold them for nickels. My girlfriend didn't want such huge speakers or I'd have been all over them. The woofer surrounds were shot though upon inspection at the time of sale. He bought some high dollar (euro's actually) new speakers (slim towers, can't remember the make) but they couldn't match the midrange of the Altecs i.m.h.o.
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