Hi
ther's two main problems in systems HIFI
1) CONTACTS
------------
All components have contacts inside, valve, transistor, resistor, potentiometer, little potentiometer, even electrolytic condenser and of course contacts himself, rotactors, sockets etc...
The best solution is to REMOVE all components or all contacts you can remove or replace contacts by a solder. Take your soldering iron like gun and hunt contacts remove remove .....
2) CONDENSER
-------------
All active components have condenser inside, transistor, (Cbj, Cec...), diode, shielded cable etc... too many amplifier are inside too many frequency compensation, they sound dull, bad whithout live etc...
The best solution is to remore or reduce all components or all condenser you can remove.
a good amplifier works better whithout frequency compensation, for ex NELSON PASS products or linsley HOOD amplifier are made whithout frequency compensation, they sound very well of course.
Another way is to GAINCLONE your amplifier or make GAINCLONE amplifier directly.
Take your soldering iron like gun and hunt condenser remove remove ..... beware for frequency compensation condenser if you are not enough skilled, your amplifier could smoke, you should have to replace output & driver transistor.
Choose a transistor with lowest Cbc( miller effect) or highest Ft. They very often sound better.
3) TRANSFORMER
---------------
big transformer sound better than small one it's not a revelation but it's works, even in a preamplifier our an active filter try it, it worth.
4) INTERMODULATION
------------------
for a cabinet with 3 speaker (way)there are less intermodulation than 1 loudspeaker (1way) that is true but it's not a revelation, every one knows that. 3 amplifier with very good active filter works really better than one. For me it's a sound revelation, it's much more true than for a cabinet.
CONCLUSION
----------
With this philosophy I made MIRACLE for very low money but a lot of work it's a drawback. it could take an entier book for explain all aspect of this 4 ways. I use only very cheap transistor or very cheap AOP, it's cheaper but my system sound better (more warm, human) than almost all tube, valve system (WE300B etc..) intelligence & creativity & lot of work vs expensive big material.
ther's two main problems in systems HIFI
1) CONTACTS
------------
All components have contacts inside, valve, transistor, resistor, potentiometer, little potentiometer, even electrolytic condenser and of course contacts himself, rotactors, sockets etc...
The best solution is to REMOVE all components or all contacts you can remove or replace contacts by a solder. Take your soldering iron like gun and hunt contacts remove remove .....
2) CONDENSER
-------------
All active components have condenser inside, transistor, (Cbj, Cec...), diode, shielded cable etc... too many amplifier are inside too many frequency compensation, they sound dull, bad whithout live etc...
The best solution is to remore or reduce all components or all condenser you can remove.
a good amplifier works better whithout frequency compensation, for ex NELSON PASS products or linsley HOOD amplifier are made whithout frequency compensation, they sound very well of course.
Another way is to GAINCLONE your amplifier or make GAINCLONE amplifier directly.
Take your soldering iron like gun and hunt condenser remove remove ..... beware for frequency compensation condenser if you are not enough skilled, your amplifier could smoke, you should have to replace output & driver transistor.
Choose a transistor with lowest Cbc( miller effect) or highest Ft. They very often sound better.
3) TRANSFORMER
---------------
big transformer sound better than small one it's not a revelation but it's works, even in a preamplifier our an active filter try it, it worth.
4) INTERMODULATION
------------------
for a cabinet with 3 speaker (way)there are less intermodulation than 1 loudspeaker (1way) that is true but it's not a revelation, every one knows that. 3 amplifier with very good active filter works really better than one. For me it's a sound revelation, it's much more true than for a cabinet.
CONCLUSION
----------
With this philosophy I made MIRACLE for very low money but a lot of work it's a drawback. it could take an entier book for explain all aspect of this 4 ways. I use only very cheap transistor or very cheap AOP, it's cheaper but my system sound better (more warm, human) than almost all tube, valve system (WE300B etc..) intelligence & creativity & lot of work vs expensive big material.
You completely omit any mention of electronics quality - I wouldn't say it matters the most by any means, but to my ears its hugely important.
speaker's diaphragm resonance is the biggest problem.
so many people ignore it in their designs. electric notch filters are not much of a help.
acoustic absorbers must be used, especially with metal drivers.
so many people ignore it in their designs. electric notch filters are not much of a help.
acoustic absorbers must be used, especially with metal drivers.
Yes - I thought someone might mention this. I don't expect all to agree, but I don't consider electronics to rate as highly as most of the items in there. I'd consider speakers and room to be about 80 - 90% of the result.
MT, have you seen Zaph audio write about that? They show a metal cone with sharp breakup vs a softer cone with it spread out. The end result with both is similar.
If all agree, where's the fun of discussion? 😀
My own experience is rather the opposite - having heard the difference that electronics makes, I find that its at least 80% of the quality of the result. Perhaps more - I can easily live with my untreated rooms and low cost speakers, but I won't live with poor electronics. Maybe that's just because its easy (not to mention fun) to change electronics, but pretty hard work to remodel a room. Or perhaps its because you already have good enough electronics in the first place, whereas I keep buying really cheap stuff...😛
When you consider everything's value-vs-requirement-vs-cost curves peak at different points, it's hard to really put a number as to how much each affects. For $100, you might be best spending all on speakers. For $1000, spread the spending evenly, for $10000, room correction, for $1M, surgery and etc.
I would pay $1M to get the perception of an experienced conductor and the sensitivity of that of a child.
I would pay $1M to get the perception of an experienced conductor and the sensitivity of that of a child.
Although speakers are probably more important, they are obvious. So, here's something important that's not obvious:
Capacitive Multiplier circuit
Yes, it seems that it could be or should be important.
Why would that circuit be omitted?
Well the answer to that seems to be either laziness or the erroneous assumption that a bunch of big caps could provide linear support.
Capacitive Multiplier circuit
Yes, it seems that it could be or should be important.
Why would that circuit be omitted?
Well the answer to that seems to be either laziness or the erroneous assumption that a bunch of big caps could provide linear support.
That's certainly a biggie, and it's terrible because most people insist on speaker placement based on decor, which is never a good place acoustically. I put 'em on stools (really cheap speaker stands), sitting on old encyclopedia volumes as necessary to raise tweeter to ear heights, in the middle of the room and SEVERAL FEET FROM WALLS and other objects If I can be in an 8 foot triangle and have each speakers at least three feet from the closest wall, it'll sound good. I'd rather have fair speakers with good placement than great speakers with bad placement.
Years ago on rec.audio.pro I recall lists of "What's the most important thing(s) in the recording chain," listed from most to least important. What basically developed was the MOST important thing to have is something worth recording. Then it came down to good rooms, mic placement, varied microphone choices, long lists of equipment, bla bla bla.
It's amazing how many people want to hear a bad recording of Elvis, yet how few want to hear a good recording of me.
That's a Good Thing, though it helps to hack in between times so your fingers don't bleed at such opportunities. Playing with people better than you, for as long as they can stand you, is one way of getting better.
I've sort of "hung around" the music industry for some of my life, and heard things like "You should be nice to the people you meet on the way up ... because you'll meet those same people on the way down."
For $1E6, hire your favorite musician(s) to play in your living room. It's the ultimate "bypass" switch.
For #3, don't forget: voltage drive, current drive, hybrid current drive, variable hybrid current drive, and simple padding resistors for midrange and tweeter.
For #5, if one happens to have chosen known good speaker drivers, don't forget: Series type and hybrid series type crossovers redirecting rather than ruining signal, achieve greater clarity at distance. . . highly reliant on your choice of speaker drivers. Its an important concept for when you want clear audio all over the house rather than the typical muffled roar in all except one room.
For #6, oh definitely do consider the wide bandwidth, but ixnay on the huge sluggish woofers except for modern homes with the Great Room design, barn dance, wedding singer, and country club. They're great when needed, but otherwise, clearer might be better than louder.
For the average living room (that doesn't have a kitchen and dining room in it) I'd much rather see 4 of 7" 4 ohm (dayton RS black alloy) woofers in series parallel, per each channel than a couple of oxen slow big woofers. The efficiency difference in small to medium size rooms is astounding when the bass is very high resolution.
The 8 busy little woofers (currently on sale) in a stereo pair plus a stereo pair of full range (add series resistor if that full range you purchased was made for the tube amp you didn't purchase) and a pair of electrostatic helper tweeters can be driven to glory (about 112db of hi res audio) by the fast trip to hi-fi--a simple Parallel LM1875 amplifier on capacitive multiplier (or discrete regulator) power. Can that be beaten? Of course, if your room is bigger than the average living room. The only gripe I have with your 15" to 18" woofers is that. . . my room is not that big. I could break the drywall and still get no significantly clear bass.
For #12, don't forget: L-pads on midrange and tweeter of a 3-way speaker. This is especially useful in a portable sound reinforcement speaker. L-pads affect harmonic balance without putting gain on junk like equalizers. 🙂
Oh yes ,I still have to further investigate how 'directivity' relates with XO design, yet I suspect it's a matter of slope ,Q and driver spacing 🙄
But I don't think that it's a matter of what kind of XO is used ,but if the goal is reached .
Also ,in #12 ,about gain and attenuation ,that depends uniquely to the 'user': the use of L-pads on this side of the world has been completely abandoned .When a speaker project is considered finished and working ,why add another gadget that rattles and oxides ,and makes the 'user' compulsory to touch it and viable ,then strange ideas may arise in his (her
) head .It's psychological ...indeed pure HIFI 😀 means (for me)short routing of the signal and no thrills and frills .
I can't agree. I can put together a very musical system with speakers that don't cost much (or that cost a lot), but not unless the electronics & source are up to snuff.
dave
I'm with Waki, the music is the most important thing, all the rest is just fiddling around the margins. As I type this, I'm listening to a £20 DAB radio, and I can forgive the 128Kbs stream, the cheap 1 1/2" pressed speaker with no top, no bottom and "interesting" mid range response simply because it's playing one of my favourite tunes. In fact, that's just finished, so, as I'm having a lie in, I'll probably now listen to a radio show I missed last night with lots of interesting new, (to me), music on the built-in iBook speakers. Yes, I could go downstairs and fire up one of the big systems, but frankly, I'm happy here. If you have the music, the rest is just set dressing.
edit: Forgot to mention the DAB, though having stereo outs, only has one speaker, and no channel mixing means it actually only plays the right channel...🙂
edit: Forgot to mention the DAB, though having stereo outs, only has one speaker, and no channel mixing means it actually only plays the right channel...🙂
pinkmouse,
Well, I can't really disagree. However, the question I'm posing is really focused on what are the important issues in audio reproduction.
Well, I can't really disagree. However, the question I'm posing is really focused on what are the important issues in audio reproduction.
Well in that case, It's source material. We need tech, (and record company business models), to develop so we can have high resolution streaming or downloadable music at a reasonable price rather than the extremely average CDs or MP3s we currently get.
However I suspect I'm still evading the core of your question. 🙂
However I suspect I'm still evading the core of your question. 🙂
Paul,
I think the issues are mainly related to getting the signal cleanly from the encoded media (from storage to varying electonic signal level) and then, at the other end, converting it cleanly to sound (from varying electronic signal level to moving air sound pressure). The bit in the middle (amplification) is interesting to me, but seems not as problematic as the bits at either end of the chain.
Once the signal is converted to sound pressure then the immediate environment is the biggest hurdle - the room in the case of speakers, or the position of the transducers (clamped next to your ears) in the case of headphones.
J.
I think the issues are mainly related to getting the signal cleanly from the encoded media (from storage to varying electonic signal level) and then, at the other end, converting it cleanly to sound (from varying electronic signal level to moving air sound pressure). The bit in the middle (amplification) is interesting to me, but seems not as problematic as the bits at either end of the chain.
Once the signal is converted to sound pressure then the immediate environment is the biggest hurdle - the room in the case of speakers, or the position of the transducers (clamped next to your ears) in the case of headphones.
J.
Good points made here......engaging topic. Soundstage, at least to myself, is the most important aspect by far. If a system cannot project as sense of space/depth, on center vocals, separation/location of individual instruments, it's not worth my attention. IMO, this can generally only be accessed by way of a truly great live recording (one mic in an acoustically loaded controlled environment).
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Regardless of recordings and speakers (which DO matter greatly!), amplifiers vary on "sense of space" and I don't know why. Any ideas?
For a moment I thought you had said "pace" and I was about to say, please don't say rhythm, pace or timing! I'm allergic to those words unless you are talking about music.
Space ... imaging. The first thing I'd consider is perhaps frequency response, especially if you are thinking of valve amps.
Space ... imaging. The first thing I'd consider is perhaps frequency response, especially if you are thinking of valve amps.
Yes, I have one. I've changed grounding on more than one amplifier and the result was a change in the spaciousness of recordings. Depth in particular seemed to increase and placement of instruments became clearer when I implemented a rigorous star-earthing topology on some of my amps. Quite what changes when the earthing changes I'm not sure, but my best guess is RF intermodulation.
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