I have two AV12 subs with crazy excursion (46mm p-p) when there is plenty of power to throw at them (500 watts into 4 ohms) and all my simulations show that it actually needs that kind of power to move to xmax, unlike others drivers like the Peerless XLS and Shiva which can reach their limits with 100 or 200 watts, depending on the box.
Here it is:
My subs
This is a problem as it's expensive to get this much power into 2 subs. I'd like some suggestions on how to do it on a budget. It seems like whatever I do, I'm likely to have to spend AUD $800 if I:
- get plate amps or
- get a PA amp like the Behrringer Europower or a 2ndhand Crest (or was it crest) ... both costing about AUD $800
- build from a kit (either aussie amps or ESP)
Any / all suggestions welcome!
Here it is:
My subs
This is a problem as it's expensive to get this much power into 2 subs. I'd like some suggestions on how to do it on a budget. It seems like whatever I do, I'm likely to have to spend AUD $800 if I:
- get plate amps or
- get a PA amp like the Behrringer Europower or a 2ndhand Crest (or was it crest) ... both costing about AUD $800
- build from a kit (either aussie amps or ESP)
Any / all suggestions welcome!
One cheap alternative would be to use a car amp and a big 12 volt power supply. Be sure that you outlet can handle the amperage you need regardless of what route you go.
one suggestion for you to try...
1st off im assuming you have something built.
simply this - use whatever amp you have on hand and listen to what your sub puts out under normal listening conditions.
Reason I say this is I got a 300w plate amp for my sub, and the driver (NHT 1259) is SO LOUD that I cant turn the amp up over 1/4 of the way or my sub overpowers everything else.
If you have nicely efficent drivers you dont need a mongo amp.
so you may be able to get by with a 2 channel 200w amp....
1st off im assuming you have something built.
simply this - use whatever amp you have on hand and listen to what your sub puts out under normal listening conditions.
Reason I say this is I got a 300w plate amp for my sub, and the driver (NHT 1259) is SO LOUD that I cant turn the amp up over 1/4 of the way or my sub overpowers everything else.
If you have nicely efficent drivers you dont need a mongo amp.
so you may be able to get by with a 2 channel 200w amp....
No question about it ... 500 watts and no less!
John at Stryke says this is what you need for the AV12 and my experience confirms this. My NAD 2200 bridged into 8 ohms (both subs hooked up in series) has 400 watts rms and it wasn't enough. I tried different configuations for the amp and at one time it went into overload and shut down before the drivers were moving to half their xmax. I have nothing that is working to use for these subs at the moment ... right now they are in ugly 70L test prototype boxes until I can get an amp with sufficient power for me to see that my design is going to work ie. no vent noise at xmax as the box I have in mind is very elaborate and I pretty much need to be able to design it then build it without too much adjusting. Hence the test boxes to work out the volume, vent length and size and tuning, and get that right first.
John at Stryke says this is what you need for the AV12 and my experience confirms this. My NAD 2200 bridged into 8 ohms (both subs hooked up in series) has 400 watts rms and it wasn't enough. I tried different configuations for the amp and at one time it went into overload and shut down before the drivers were moving to half their xmax. I have nothing that is working to use for these subs at the moment ... right now they are in ugly 70L test prototype boxes until I can get an amp with sufficient power for me to see that my design is going to work ie. no vent noise at xmax as the box I have in mind is very elaborate and I pretty much need to be able to design it then build it without too much adjusting. Hence the test boxes to work out the volume, vent length and size and tuning, and get that right first.
oh okay - so youve done my suggestion already.
in that case - check these out:
500w amp
1kwatt amp
not sure how $US translates to $AU though.
in that case - check these out:
500w amp
1kwatt amp
not sure how $US translates to $AU though.
hi
this driver may have been assembled in usa but most of the parts seems to have been sourced (if not the entire driver itself) from taiwan , that too a taiwanese co which has all its factories in mainland china
in that sence shiva s are yet better they are eminence assembled
(soft parts cone , spiders ets are form - Nuway / LCC or kurt Mueller - I guess of the Shivas , Tumult )
your parts also resemble to be used in car audio application - therefore the need of all that power
i am sure the suspension is very stiff - and hardly linear
linearity test :-
the force required to you push the cone inwards
=
to the foce required to push the cone upwards
these are again signs of chinese - parts and speakers
as for your amp problem if its a stiff driver - then u hardly need to worry about the damping factor and the slew rate / also the phase responce - just go for the highest power amp to suit your budget - may it be an IC based amp / raw power pa amps ets
sorry if i went a bit hard on the driver - I am assuming if the suspension to be stiff
suranjan das gupta
transducer design engineer
this driver may have been assembled in usa but most of the parts seems to have been sourced (if not the entire driver itself) from taiwan , that too a taiwanese co which has all its factories in mainland china
in that sence shiva s are yet better they are eminence assembled
(soft parts cone , spiders ets are form - Nuway / LCC or kurt Mueller - I guess of the Shivas , Tumult )
your parts also resemble to be used in car audio application - therefore the need of all that power
i am sure the suspension is very stiff - and hardly linear
linearity test :-
the force required to you push the cone inwards
=
to the foce required to push the cone upwards
these are again signs of chinese - parts and speakers
as for your amp problem if its a stiff driver - then u hardly need to worry about the damping factor and the slew rate / also the phase responce - just go for the highest power amp to suit your budget - may it be an IC based amp / raw power pa amps ets
sorry if i went a bit hard on the driver - I am assuming if the suspension to be stiff
suranjan das gupta
transducer design engineer
Amp
One option is to build Randy Slone's Totem-Pole amp that can go up to 800w.
I finished assembling Randy Slone's Optimos amp (same circuit as the Totem-Pole but less power I suppose) last weekend and I have been spending all evening this week to listen to it. Mine is less than 150w. The sound quality of the amplifier exceeded my expectations. IMO to get that sound from a commercial amp you would be looking at paying between $3000 - $6000. It is not perfect but it can easily beat all the NAD / Rotel amps I have listened to. One of the best sounding amps I had was a Musical Fidelity 60w pure class A amp. I think the MF is slightly sweeter, but the Optimos amp seems to have the speed and power and can drive difficult speakers with ease. I did the soldering and it made music straight away - no turn on/off thumps, no hums, nothing, just silence and music. Your drivers may not need an amp as accurate as that one but if one day you want to change your speaker you know that you have a good amp to use. I initially contacted Mr. Slone but he refered me to his distributor in OZ www.ledeaudio.com. For an Optimos amp I think you can build one for under AUD$800 without the chasis. You can buy whole kits (without chasis) and it saves you time shopping for components. It is very easy to build. My only difficulty is to make the chasis - the PCBs and the heatsinks are quite large and they won't fit into a 3U rack. I will need to cut aluminim sheets and angles to make the chasis.
One option is to build Randy Slone's Totem-Pole amp that can go up to 800w.
I finished assembling Randy Slone's Optimos amp (same circuit as the Totem-Pole but less power I suppose) last weekend and I have been spending all evening this week to listen to it. Mine is less than 150w. The sound quality of the amplifier exceeded my expectations. IMO to get that sound from a commercial amp you would be looking at paying between $3000 - $6000. It is not perfect but it can easily beat all the NAD / Rotel amps I have listened to. One of the best sounding amps I had was a Musical Fidelity 60w pure class A amp. I think the MF is slightly sweeter, but the Optimos amp seems to have the speed and power and can drive difficult speakers with ease. I did the soldering and it made music straight away - no turn on/off thumps, no hums, nothing, just silence and music. Your drivers may not need an amp as accurate as that one but if one day you want to change your speaker you know that you have a good amp to use. I initially contacted Mr. Slone but he refered me to his distributor in OZ www.ledeaudio.com. For an Optimos amp I think you can build one for under AUD$800 without the chasis. You can buy whole kits (without chasis) and it saves you time shopping for components. It is very easy to build. My only difficulty is to make the chasis - the PCBs and the heatsinks are quite large and they won't fit into a 3U rack. I will need to cut aluminim sheets and angles to make the chasis.
Hi Paul
Depending on how much you want to spend I know where there is a Crown K1 in mint condition FS in Melbourne, trouble is probably wants around $1500.00 not sure on the price, as when I was talking to him the other night he told me he still had it. He upgraded to a Quest 2400w unit.
Let me know if you are interested.
Dick
Depending on how much you want to spend I know where there is a Crown K1 in mint condition FS in Melbourne, trouble is probably wants around $1500.00 not sure on the price, as when I was talking to him the other night he told me he still had it. He upgraded to a Quest 2400w unit.
Let me know if you are interested.
Dick
One time offer:
You could buy my sub-amp for a reasonable price...
I picked my nickname after this amp.
It´s a Luxman Z504 stereo power amp Lab. series build in 1984.
It leaves me 2x1500 W in 8 ohm in class AB and some 3160 W mono.
You can also use it in class A mode stereo or mono.
No shipping! =)
_______________________________________________
The first cut is never the deepest...
You could buy my sub-amp for a reasonable price...
I picked my nickname after this amp.
It´s a Luxman Z504 stereo power amp Lab. series build in 1984.
It leaves me 2x1500 W in 8 ohm in class AB and some 3160 W mono.
You can also use it in class A mode stereo or mono.
No shipping! =)
_______________________________________________
The first cut is never the deepest...
Member
Joined 2002
Those plate amps look a little small and iffy. 500 watts is not just 500 watts. i don't see any heat sink at all to dissipate any power from the outputs..I could be wrong but if it looks to small to complete the job it might be.. You want some raw horse power something that will grab this drivers voice coils and move them when they are to be moved not to burn them out with distortion and stuff.
What about building a pair of amps from www.aussieamplifiers.com.. i build the n-channel and it worked pretty dam good. Except i blew it up removing it from the heat sink and putting over to a new one. so i have to order 6 more fets and then it will be a live again..
I like your webpage a lot good work and i like your idea of your subwoofer enclosure's a lot too.. Great idea.. Got any drawing's?
What about building a pair of amps from www.aussieamplifiers.com.. i build the n-channel and it worked pretty dam good. Except i blew it up removing it from the heat sink and putting over to a new one. so i have to order 6 more fets and then it will be a live again..
I like your webpage a lot good work and i like your idea of your subwoofer enclosure's a lot too.. Great idea.. Got any drawing's?
Thanks for the suggestions Kittle, those plate amps look good except for 2 things:
1. my design doesn't allow any space to mount a plate amp
2. that's a lot of amp to ship (shipping charge etc)
I would need two and it would end up quite expensive.
The driver came from Stryke Audio, now Audio Elegance:
Stryke Audio AV series
It was manufactured by TC sounds
If I'm not mistaken, TC sounds is in the US. I see no reason to suggest that the parts came from elsewhere, perhaps I could be wrong, but I certainly see no reason to say the Shiva is better built. The AV12 has a more durable rubber surround and a cast basket. Overall very solid and well built, it is quite impressive to see.
It is not a dedicated car audio driver. Because it was designed for high output, they chose with the DVC to design for 1 ohm or 4 ohms to cover both car audio and home theatre. You will notice the low fs ~22 Hz - hence designed for HT primarily.
Yes it is a very stiff driver. The reason it requires so much power is not that it was designed for automotive use. It was designed for relatively small enclosures, in particular for use with passive radiators. The combination of a smallish enclosure and such high excursion means a lot of power is needed to move the stiff cone. This is one of the tradeoffs necessary to pull off this much output in a small box. It is in between the Peerless XLS and the Shiva in terms of required box size. This is also what allows me to come up with the box design that I have on my site - if I had the Shiva, I would need a bigger box and the proportions of the box using that curved design wouldn't look right. In my case I think I have managed to design a vented box (very difficult for this driver). I do need to test it with a decent amp so I can be sure I don't have turbulence problems.
1. my design doesn't allow any space to mount a plate amp
2. that's a lot of amp to ship (shipping charge etc)
I would need two and it would end up quite expensive.
hunter audio said:
The driver came from Stryke Audio, now Audio Elegance:
Stryke Audio AV series
It was manufactured by TC sounds
If I'm not mistaken, TC sounds is in the US. I see no reason to suggest that the parts came from elsewhere, perhaps I could be wrong, but I certainly see no reason to say the Shiva is better built. The AV12 has a more durable rubber surround and a cast basket. Overall very solid and well built, it is quite impressive to see.
It is not a dedicated car audio driver. Because it was designed for high output, they chose with the DVC to design for 1 ohm or 4 ohms to cover both car audio and home theatre. You will notice the low fs ~22 Hz - hence designed for HT primarily.
Yes it is a very stiff driver. The reason it requires so much power is not that it was designed for automotive use. It was designed for relatively small enclosures, in particular for use with passive radiators. The combination of a smallish enclosure and such high excursion means a lot of power is needed to move the stiff cone. This is one of the tradeoffs necessary to pull off this much output in a small box. It is in between the Peerless XLS and the Shiva in terms of required box size. This is also what allows me to come up with the box design that I have on my site - if I had the Shiva, I would need a bigger box and the proportions of the box using that curved design wouldn't look right. In my case I think I have managed to design a vented box (very difficult for this driver). I do need to test it with a decent amp so I can be sure I don't have turbulence problems.
Re: One time offer:
I had a look and it seems interesting although VERY little information on the site. Is there more info elsewhere?
Dick, yes I'm interested I believe Crown amps are impressive, however $1500 is quite a bit above my budget. For less than $800 I can get the Behringer Europower with plenty of power. Still, if you think it's worth inquiring ...
No shipping? Are you sure about that?! :O
Do you have a link to some info on that amp?
It's a class G, high efficiency, a bit like a class D. They are so much more efficient that their heat sink requirements are much much less - the back plate will be a heat sink even though it doesn't have fins. If it were a regular class AB amp then that would be different ...
I have seen the site long ago and was interested. Twice I have emailed asking a few simple questions, with no response. This suggests to me that if I as a potential customer receive no response, what would happen if I had already purchased, then needed questions resolved! Very disapointing ...
Thanks, it's always good to get positive comments 🙂
I havent fully resolved the design yet. Even once I have built it, I doubt anyone would ever build it exactly the same if I provided drawings. People always want to change something (different driver etc) and even the new version of the driver has different parameters. Anyone who is willing to go to the effort of building such a tricky box will no doubt want to change it in some way.
After I have built it I will probably provide construction pics, maybe even some 3D cross sections done in CAD. I might even do an animation of the driver moving to xmax with a 3D section showing all the moving parts, just for fun.
HiFiNutNut said:
I had a look and it seems interesting although VERY little information on the site. Is there more info elsewhere?
Spearmint said:
Dick, yes I'm interested I believe Crown amps are impressive, however $1500 is quite a bit above my budget. For less than $800 I can get the Behringer Europower with plenty of power. Still, if you think it's worth inquiring ...
LuxmanZ504 said:
No shipping? Are you sure about that?! :O
Do you have a link to some info on that amp?
JasonL said:
It's a class G, high efficiency, a bit like a class D. They are so much more efficient that their heat sink requirements are much much less - the back plate will be a heat sink even though it doesn't have fins. If it were a regular class AB amp then that would be different ...
JasonL said:
I have seen the site long ago and was interested. Twice I have emailed asking a few simple questions, with no response. This suggests to me that if I as a potential customer receive no response, what would happen if I had already purchased, then needed questions resolved! Very disapointing ...
JasonL said:
Thanks, it's always good to get positive comments 🙂
I havent fully resolved the design yet. Even once I have built it, I doubt anyone would ever build it exactly the same if I provided drawings. People always want to change something (different driver etc) and even the new version of the driver has different parameters. Anyone who is willing to go to the effort of building such a tricky box will no doubt want to change it in some way.
After I have built it I will probably provide construction pics, maybe even some 3D cross sections done in CAD. I might even do an animation of the driver moving to xmax with a 3D section showing all the moving parts, just for fun.
Paul
I realise the Behringer are great bang for buck, although the fans are apparently very noisy, in saying this you can change them for quieter ones. Where as the Crown K1 has no fans, I guess it comes down to whether you tolerate fan noise.
Crown K1
These amps retail at around 3k in OZ, so if it outside the budget no problems, I just wanted to pass on the info, I have no vested interest in the sale.
Dick
I realise the Behringer are great bang for buck, although the fans are apparently very noisy, in saying this you can change them for quieter ones. Where as the Crown K1 has no fans, I guess it comes down to whether you tolerate fan noise.
Crown K1
These amps retail at around 3k in OZ, so if it outside the budget no problems, I just wanted to pass on the info, I have no vested interest in the sale.
Dick
Keep in mind that if this is for portable use, you rarely see Behringer in any serious touring rack. It's good cheap stuff, but it doesn't hold up well. The Europower might look attractive, but do some serious research on how well the hold up with moderate use. Again IF it's gonna be portable. If it is going to sit in a living room it would probably be fine. There's no reason however, besides cost, that a used Crown Macro or Microtech or Crest 8001 or CA series wouldn't be a smart buy.
hi
i was not talking about the whole driver being designed for car audio - but only the cone - it i think is to double in car audio as well as high power subs -
regarding the rubber surround u will find that it is a thick - synthetic rubber surround - the type required for car audio
discerning hi-fi uses light soft natural rubber surrounds - the roll profile looks attractive but that is all totally dependant on the suspensn linearity requirements
as for the chassis if it was stanless steel or titanium - it will have nothing to do with the sound quality
it is a run of the mill chassis made to accomodate all types of cones therefore when u look at it from behind u will find so many steps to accomodate spiders - for different cone heights
it is not a speacially ordered chassis just for this driver
a common one to suit quite a few cones - in a spoked design
next the motor structure -
the XBL 2 motor structure is a revolution for its linear bl over an extreme excursions (adire abudio)
as for the dual voice coil its no big thing - its a four layer coil with 4 terminal to be paralleled or series - ed as per user
if it was a dual voice coil with a differential coil - then it is something - your motorstructure is quite a common one
as the vent gap s quite small and the material has not been dug out to concentrate field strength at the magnetic gap - u will be having losses with your magnet supplying such an heavy back plate / pole
suranjan das gupta
transducer design engineer
i was not talking about the whole driver being designed for car audio - but only the cone - it i think is to double in car audio as well as high power subs -
regarding the rubber surround u will find that it is a thick - synthetic rubber surround - the type required for car audio
discerning hi-fi uses light soft natural rubber surrounds - the roll profile looks attractive but that is all totally dependant on the suspensn linearity requirements
as for the chassis if it was stanless steel or titanium - it will have nothing to do with the sound quality
it is a run of the mill chassis made to accomodate all types of cones therefore when u look at it from behind u will find so many steps to accomodate spiders - for different cone heights
it is not a speacially ordered chassis just for this driver
a common one to suit quite a few cones - in a spoked design
next the motor structure -
the XBL 2 motor structure is a revolution for its linear bl over an extreme excursions (adire abudio)
as for the dual voice coil its no big thing - its a four layer coil with 4 terminal to be paralleled or series - ed as per user
if it was a dual voice coil with a differential coil - then it is something - your motorstructure is quite a common one
as the vent gap s quite small and the material has not been dug out to concentrate field strength at the magnetic gap - u will be having losses with your magnet supplying such an heavy back plate / pole
suranjan das gupta
transducer design engineer
Hi Paul!
Not for now, but I´ll look around...
I could always scan the manual, but then I need some time.
Maybe you could e-mail Luxman for some info..?
It´s a quite uncommon amp. I believe it only exists about 10-20 of them in Sweden. If I´m not mistaking they sold them as a DIY kit in the early 80´s.
Not for now, but I´ll look around...
I could always scan the manual, but then I need some time.
Maybe you could e-mail Luxman for some info..?
It´s a quite uncommon amp. I believe it only exists about 10-20 of them in Sweden. If I´m not mistaking they sold them as a DIY kit in the early 80´s.
you have to ask yourself the following questions
1) do i want to meet or exceed my xmax rating
i certainly dont.
2)should i spend thousands for very little gain
it doesnt make much sense
400w-800w-1600w....
Note that above 1/2 the rms rating power compression(depending on what rating is) will rid you of the top few db that you were franticaly searching for.
alot of flopping around,for just 3-6db more output
if you REALLY want to use all the excursion put them on open baffle!
Cheers
🙂
1) do i want to meet or exceed my xmax rating
i certainly dont.
2)should i spend thousands for very little gain
it doesnt make much sense
400w-800w-1600w....
Note that above 1/2 the rms rating power compression(depending on what rating is) will rid you of the top few db that you were franticaly searching for.
alot of flopping around,for just 3-6db more output
if you REALLY want to use all the excursion put them on open baffle!
Cheers
🙂
LuxmanZ504 said:
That would be great thanks 😉
Mike,
I know you're a horn guy so this might seem a silly approach to you. However, this is a HT and music sub, and what I want from it is clear - I want it to be fairly compact, elegant & stylish, have 20 Hz extention (or very close) and high output. According to my priorities I believe I have the best fit.
mikee12345 said:
yes and no ...
What I want is an amp that can push the drivers to xmax and beyond. Then I don't have to worry about clipping, it's simply a matter of being careful that the drivers aren't pushed to over-excursion. I don't intend to push them to xmax continuously, it's more a question of headroom - to handle the burst of LF energy in movies, especially when it's not a familiar movie and I don't know when and how loud are the booms and explosions.
LuxmanZ504 said:
I'm not going to spend thousands! ...
Frantically? Let's not go that far!
No, I don't want to use all the excursion just for the sake of it. It comes down to designing the integration of the parts of a subwoofer system to have a good match. I bought a high excursion driver and I don't want to be limited by amplifier power. The drivers can actually handle more like 700 watts from a thermal/electrical point of view but 500 watts is what is recommended by the supplier when excursion is considered.
mikee12345 said:
yes, but us DIYers are a bit like that, we do a lot of messing around just to get a little bit more than we have. Afterall, isn't the blurb "projects by the fanatics, for the fanatics?"
Yes, it's double the excursion for 6db more output, but you have to admit, 46mm of excursion does look pretty good!
Paul...
If you haven't read this review check it out on the Behringer EP2500 amp.
http://home.mn.rr.com/hometheater/Beh2500.htm
Sounds like a good buy.
Dick
If you haven't read this review check it out on the Behringer EP2500 amp.
http://home.mn.rr.com/hometheater/Beh2500.htm
Sounds like a good buy.
Dick
- Status
- Not open for further replies.