So, I tried ripping some CDs to .wav, mp3, FLAC and AAC using EAC, iTunes etc. for the different formats. Generally I'm pretty happy with the sound. Whilst replaying one of my favourite torture tracks, I noticed it distorts on computer stored or pen drive stored media. BUT it sounds fine if I copy the file to a disc as either AAC or .wav and replay it using the optical drive on a PC. I've tried it out on a number of PCs of different ages, including very modern Core2Duo machines, with the same result. All listened to through the onboard sound card and accurate headphones for comparison
Hi Mike. Thanks for your response. I used no 'hi-fi' as such. I just replayed the tracks using the output from the on-board sound cards for each PC, listened to through some good headphones. Basically, I'm recounting an experience which doesn't make sense. There's no difference between audio tracks or equipment, only in the method of replay, either from stored file on a hard drive or pen drive compared with the same file replayed from a disc. It doesn't make any sense, but I've tried the same process out on 6 different PCs now with the same result. Headphones were Sennheisers, if that helps.
The track was ripped to hard drive using EAC for the .wav file and iTunes for the AAC version. This was copied to pen drive and a DVD, on which I was compiling a number of music files. It would be highly unusual to do this normally. I was just dismayed by the fact the track failed to reproduce properly as a sound file, when the original CD had replayed perfectly on any kind of optical device I trialled it on. Sorry if this explanation is getting rather drawn out!
Well, surprisingly, the AAC and .wav played back perfectly from the DVD, whichever PC I used, when the exact same file always distorted as the synthesizer fades on my torture track as a hard drive or pen drive stored file. The AAC is obviously of poorer quality than the .wav, but still passes the test on DVD.
I can only imagine there's some difference in replay from hard drive compared with optical drive. I know nothing about computer audio really, but would be interested to hear any kind of explanation or similar experience.
Well, surprisingly, the AAC and .wav played back perfectly from the DVD, whichever PC I used, when the exact same file always distorted as the synthesizer fades on my torture track as a hard drive or pen drive stored file. The AAC is obviously of poorer quality than the .wav, but still passes the test on DVD.
I can only imagine there's some difference in replay from hard drive compared with optical drive. I know nothing about computer audio really, but would be interested to hear any kind of explanation or similar experience.
It's -very- unlikely, but there are reasons this can happen - if, for instance, your hard drive was not operating in DMA mode, but the DVD drive was.
However, all files that are played back will be buffered to some extent in RAM. From there, the playback should always be identical, unless the system is under very high load or the buffer is insufficient to keep up with the playback.
As I noted above, a drive operating in PIO mode instead of DMA mode will do just that - it's too slow to keep up with audio playback, and places the CPU under heavy load to do any drive operations at all. I'm just going to advise that you google for it.
However, all files that are played back will be buffered to some extent in RAM. From there, the playback should always be identical, unless the system is under very high load or the buffer is insufficient to keep up with the playback.
As I noted above, a drive operating in PIO mode instead of DMA mode will do just that - it's too slow to keep up with audio playback, and places the CPU under heavy load to do any drive operations at all. I'm just going to advise that you google for it.
All hard drives running at least dma5 oldest using a 133 pata drive. As I mentioned some of the machines I've tried are ultra modern top spec core2duo Sata equipped units.
You have to list out your entire signal chain if you want an answer. What software are you using and what API is it playing the file through? ASIO, DirectSound? Do you have replay gain on or bypassed - this happened to me once and I thought I was hearing a difference between FLAC and wav but it was simply processing the files differently.
You need to lookup the definitions for three words - lossy, lossless, and uncompressed. And understand that these concepts when applied to digital audio are not subjective - there is NO grey area. Most likely you are doing something wrong or your playback system is doing something wrong and you don't realize it. Understand I am not attacking you lol I am trying to help you here.
What I would do - You said you are using EAC right? So I am assuming you are using a PC. Download foobar 2000 and the ASIO plugin. If the soundcard doesn't have ASIO drivers then download ASIO4All and use that.
You need to lookup the definitions for three words - lossy, lossless, and uncompressed. And understand that these concepts when applied to digital audio are not subjective - there is NO grey area. Most likely you are doing something wrong or your playback system is doing something wrong and you don't realize it. Understand I am not attacking you lol I am trying to help you here.
What I would do - You said you are using EAC right? So I am assuming you are using a PC. Download foobar 2000 and the ASIO plugin. If the soundcard doesn't have ASIO drivers then download ASIO4All and use that.
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Look I've tried all this. Foobar asio etc. It produces the same issue why can't anyone get over the software side and explain why a .wav works on DVD and not on hard disk. This is obviously a universal issue as I've seen this on 6 very different pcs. It's not a problem for ME really. But its brought about the question of how audio rips replay. The track also distorts on my iPod.
I really can't tell you. You haven't told us enough information except that you think you are doing it correctly. What are your settings in EAC? Are they secure or just ripping in burst mode? There are so many things that can go wrong in the chain you are talking about I can't begin to guess. You have to deduce it. But as far as I can tell the variables should point to the opposite - optical media having a problem with reproducing itself from system to system.
It's not a problemin the sense I'm still clinging on to old fashioned cd replay. Computer audio is far more convenient and has enthralled me since I first install wavelab 3 some years ago and used the digital outs on a cd rom drive to outboard dac. I see it as a distruptive technology.
Whether I ripped in burst or other mode, the datafile should not be better on the DVD, as you say it should be worse.
The track I'm doing this with is "walking in argyll" by Jackie leven. The last 20 seconds are the interesting bit.
Cheers!
Whether I ripped in burst or other mode, the datafile should not be better on the DVD, as you say it should be worse.
The track I'm doing this with is "walking in argyll" by Jackie leven. The last 20 seconds are the interesting bit.
Cheers!
Yeah but are you encoding to AAC? This is a lossy format. So you certainly are not getting more information. More than likely you are filtering out something you don't like. Or it's changing the gain staging so that you aren't clipping some stage in the playback anymore. You need to compare apples to apples right now I just see drastically different playback chains and you wondering why there is a difference.
Maybe play the unripped CD in foobar with ASIO, compare it to the wav, or flac EAC rip played in ASIO. Double check that replay gain isn't on for certain files.
Maybe play the unripped CD in foobar with ASIO, compare it to the wav, or flac EAC rip played in ASIO. Double check that replay gain isn't on for certain files.
I have replayed the exact same wav file on 6 computers, ripped with EAC. On all these machines the replayed file distorts. On all these machines the wav replays perfectly, without distortion, when the source file is on an optical disc. I have seen this phenomenon on AAC aswell. Flac foobar asio etc. Etc. No difference.
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The issue you're describing is very unlikely - there are a great many people who use a PC as their primary source, and none of them have ever reported your issue.
Perhaps you should try asking someone to set up a blinded test for you?
Perhaps you should try asking someone to set up a blinded test for you?
Dear sonokeling,
As I understand it the common item is your head phones. This could be the answer.
Do you have a multimeter or some way of measuring the resistance of your headphones?
HiFi headphones can have low impedance, but most headphones have quiet high impedance, (100+ Ohms) so most headphone outputs on non hifi gear may go into class B or even clip on lower impedance devices.
My advice to solve audio issues on computers is to get an optical output use an external optical DAC and drive it into a conventional amplifier. (as I can often hear the computer doing things without this extra decoupling even with 24 bit Creative Soundblasters) For headphone listening I would suggest a head phone amplifier after the DAC.
if your headphone resistance is less than 64 Ohms then I think clipping due to the headphone impedance is very likely to be the cause.
All said my father had exactly the same issue with an old Mac PowerPC that we put down to a MacOs X driver issue. (many others reported it). Hes now moved to Ubuntu and all is good now.
As I understand it the common item is your head phones. This could be the answer.
Do you have a multimeter or some way of measuring the resistance of your headphones?
HiFi headphones can have low impedance, but most headphones have quiet high impedance, (100+ Ohms) so most headphone outputs on non hifi gear may go into class B or even clip on lower impedance devices.
My advice to solve audio issues on computers is to get an optical output use an external optical DAC and drive it into a conventional amplifier. (as I can often hear the computer doing things without this extra decoupling even with 24 bit Creative Soundblasters) For headphone listening I would suggest a head phone amplifier after the DAC.
if your headphone resistance is less than 64 Ohms then I think clipping due to the headphone impedance is very likely to be the cause.
All said my father had exactly the same issue with an old Mac PowerPC that we put down to a MacOs X driver issue. (many others reported it). Hes now moved to Ubuntu and all is good now.
Headphone impedance?
Dear sonokeling,
As I understand it the common item is your head phones. This could be the answer.
Do you have a multimeter or some way of measuring the resistance of your headphones?
HiFi headphones can have low impedance, but most headphones have quiet high impedance, (100+ Ohms) so most headphone outputs on non hifi gear may go into class B or even clip on lower impedance devices.
My advice to solve audio issues on computers is to get an optical output use an external optical DAC and drive it into a conventional amplifier. (as I can often hear the computer doing things without this extra decoupling even with 24 bit Creative Soundblasters) For headphone listening I would suggest a head phone amplifier after the DAC.
if your headphone resistance is less than 64 Ohms then I think clipping due to the headphone impedance is very likely to be the cause.
All said my father had exactly the same issue with an old Mac PowerPC that we put down to a MacOs X driver issue. (many others reported it). Hes now moved to Ubuntu and all is good now.
Dear sonokeling,
As I understand it the common item is your head phones. This could be the answer.
Do you have a multimeter or some way of measuring the resistance of your headphones?
HiFi headphones can have low impedance, but most headphones have quiet high impedance, (100+ Ohms) so most headphone outputs on non hifi gear may go into class B or even clip on lower impedance devices.
My advice to solve audio issues on computers is to get an optical output use an external optical DAC and drive it into a conventional amplifier. (as I can often hear the computer doing things without this extra decoupling even with 24 bit Creative Soundblasters) For headphone listening I would suggest a head phone amplifier after the DAC.
if your headphone resistance is less than 64 Ohms then I think clipping due to the headphone impedance is very likely to be the cause.
All said my father had exactly the same issue with an old Mac PowerPC that we put down to a MacOs X driver issue. (many others reported it). Hes now moved to Ubuntu and all is good now.
Hi Owen,
I'm not really going to continue the thread as the emphasis is always on what I'm doing that's wrong. I wanted the focus on the track and why the DVD and hard drive files replay differently. The details may all be very interesting, but if no one has a general feeling that what I believe to be universal is universal the thread is pointless. I'm not working for Mr. Leven, but when someone posts a reply saying they've tried the track as CD, WAV and AAC through a decen headphone or audio system and hear no or some difference I really don't want to keep repeating myself.
Thanks for you comments which would be useful if I only heard the problem through the one type of headphones for all tracks. I used three types of headphones and directly fed the track to a spare input on a decent Cyrus 3 amp. Everytime, I get the same result I.e. The optical replay is fine, whilst the hard drive version is not.
I'm not really going to continue the thread as the emphasis is always on what I'm doing that's wrong. I wanted the focus on the track and why the DVD and hard drive files replay differently. The details may all be very interesting, but if no one has a general feeling that what I believe to be universal is universal the thread is pointless. I'm not working for Mr. Leven, but when someone posts a reply saying they've tried the track as CD, WAV and AAC through a decen headphone or audio system and hear no or some difference I really don't want to keep repeating myself.
Thanks for you comments which would be useful if I only heard the problem through the one type of headphones for all tracks. I used three types of headphones and directly fed the track to a spare input on a decent Cyrus 3 amp. Everytime, I get the same result I.e. The optical replay is fine, whilst the hard drive version is not.
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Dear Owen,
I felt a bit of an ***, after you offered some solid advice, so wished to respond after checking some facts. OK, ALL of my headphones have nominal 32 ohm impedance, including the iPod original headphones, sennheisers, phillips and panasonic units I've been testing, which might create an issue based on your comments.
I tried burning iTunes wav, EAC wav and Nero 8 wav to disc and pendrive, the latter because a respected audiophile informed me this gives a clearer WAV than EAC in his opinion.
Replaying through a Compaq laptop using VLN on XP, Cyrus 3 amp and mission monitor speakers connected with Kimber cable throughout, the ITunes and EAC sounded most like the original track, but only on disc.
I then trialled all three WAVs on CD and pendrive media on an Ubuntu machine, as you suggested, using sennheiser headphones only. On this occasion the Itunes and EAC rips clipped on both pen drive and disc. The Nero 8 WAV did not clip on EITHER!
So - I'm wrong - big thanks to everyone who helped put me straight - time to move on!!
I felt a bit of an ***, after you offered some solid advice, so wished to respond after checking some facts. OK, ALL of my headphones have nominal 32 ohm impedance, including the iPod original headphones, sennheisers, phillips and panasonic units I've been testing, which might create an issue based on your comments.
I tried burning iTunes wav, EAC wav and Nero 8 wav to disc and pendrive, the latter because a respected audiophile informed me this gives a clearer WAV than EAC in his opinion.
Replaying through a Compaq laptop using VLN on XP, Cyrus 3 amp and mission monitor speakers connected with Kimber cable throughout, the ITunes and EAC sounded most like the original track, but only on disc.
I then trialled all three WAVs on CD and pendrive media on an Ubuntu machine, as you suggested, using sennheiser headphones only. On this occasion the Itunes and EAC rips clipped on both pen drive and disc. The Nero 8 WAV did not clip on EITHER!
So - I'm wrong - big thanks to everyone who helped put me straight - time to move on!!
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