i built 2 w bins i found design on the internet .they are the celestion w bin found on dancetech.com
i have precision devices pd1550 in them but past a certain volume level they start popping loudly and i m sure i m not overpowering them. any help please.
i have precision devices pd1550 in them but past a certain volume level they start popping loudly and i m sure i m not overpowering them. any help please.
You're not overpowering them but they run out of excursion probably, which is just as bad. That, or your amplifier is not that good...
Maybe you're underpowering them - A clipping amp can sound a bit like popping. More of a brrrraaapp! sort of sound.
Try a bigger amp if you can.
Rob.
Try a bigger amp if you can.
Rob.
i tried them with 3 different amps. a crest audio 1200w rms at 8 ohms. a behringer at 1350 w at 8 ohms and omnitronic 2000w at 8 ohms. i use 1 amp per bin. they work well with an omnitronic amp for each bin. but i dont understand why i need a 2000 w amp to power a 600w speaker! could it be the damping factor ? because the omnitronic are >400 and the others are >200
Just out of curiosity, why are you so sure that you're not overpowering your speakers?
If you feel you need 2000 W to power properly, could there be something wrong with your expectations? Or your needs?
You're using quite a lot of power, 1200 up to 2000 Wrms per driver. The drivers are 600 Wrms. Drivers can be overpowered both mechanically and electrically. Mechanical overpowering comes to mind by the sound you describe. Electrical powerhandling says nothing about the mechanical powerhandling as different parameters are valid.
Personally I wouldn't put must trust in differences based on spec sheets.
I've not seen any spec from Omnitronic on paper that looks like it's the actual spec in practice. This can be due to the fact I've not seen many specs from Omnitronic but what I've seen so fair was good for making my day 😉
The Crest specs would be most reliable, with Behringer somewhere inbetween omnitronic and Crest.
With kind regards Johan
If you feel you need 2000 W to power properly, could there be something wrong with your expectations? Or your needs?
You're using quite a lot of power, 1200 up to 2000 Wrms per driver. The drivers are 600 Wrms. Drivers can be overpowered both mechanically and electrically. Mechanical overpowering comes to mind by the sound you describe. Electrical powerhandling says nothing about the mechanical powerhandling as different parameters are valid.
Personally I wouldn't put must trust in differences based on spec sheets.
I've not seen any spec from Omnitronic on paper that looks like it's the actual spec in practice. This can be due to the fact I've not seen many specs from Omnitronic but what I've seen so fair was good for making my day 😉
The Crest specs would be most reliable, with Behringer somewhere inbetween omnitronic and Crest.
With kind regards Johan
The PD1550 only got 8 mm of Xmax, so if you're using it to output low bass near 20 Hz, You probably need less than 100W to reach mechanical limits.
Yep thats more than enough power. Maybe try a high pass on it then. ?
No specs about the bin on dance tech. Maybe start with a 40Hz - 50Hz highpass 24dB/oct.
Rob.
No specs about the bin on dance tech. Maybe start with a 40Hz - 50Hz highpass 24dB/oct.
Rob.
These W-bins are usually designed to be used in groups of four ( and that means four in each side for a stereo system). If you are using less units, efficiency will suffer and they will become very power-hungry and prone to exceeding maximum driver excursion on the lowest octave. That's particularly true if you are using a single one on each side, as they are in no way intended to be used that way (it's like trying to drive a car lacking three of its four wheels).
So my recommendation is very simple: Build two more bins in the exact same way as the ones that you already have (matched drivers and dimensions are important) and stack them together (either two groups of two or a group of four). You will be greatly surprised at the performance improvement.
So my recommendation is very simple: Build two more bins in the exact same way as the ones that you already have (matched drivers and dimensions are important) and stack them together (either two groups of two or a group of four). You will be greatly surprised at the performance improvement.
Maybe i am expecting too much of them. i use them with 4 cerwin vega dual 15" high passed at 50 hz. so i was looking for some more low end. i work the bins from 25hz to 60hz at 18db/oct. maybe these type of bins are not good for such low freq? or the drivers?
another thing is that if i raise their cut-off freq from 60hz say to 70 or 80 hz they start popping much before the volume i was intending to work them and the clip leds on the crest light up.
does that mean that the amps are putting out all their rated power? i.e. double the precision devices power handling.
thanks to all you guys helping out
Bernard
another thing is that if i raise their cut-off freq from 60hz say to 70 or 80 hz they start popping much before the volume i was intending to work them and the clip leds on the crest light up.
does that mean that the amps are putting out all their rated power? i.e. double the precision devices power handling.
thanks to all you guys helping out
Bernard
Now it's all making sense,
A single w-bin would be usable for say 50 -150 Hz. So the low pass you use would be better suited as high pass. Below 50 -60 Hz single w-bins drop pretty quick in sensitivity. All you're hearing is the (small) closed box response of a PD1550. So it's difficult to get a less efficient sub 😉
With multiples w-bin's can be used down to 40 Hz but they won't do sub.
There is more program material at higher frequencies so if you make for a higher low pass the amps and speakers get more signal. Clipping basically means the amp is at his max, so 1200 W in case of the Crest.
If you want sub you might better look for a bandpass design like the X1 or similair or just use more CV's to get lower horn extension.
With kind regards Johan
A single w-bin would be usable for say 50 -150 Hz. So the low pass you use would be better suited as high pass. Below 50 -60 Hz single w-bins drop pretty quick in sensitivity. All you're hearing is the (small) closed box response of a PD1550. So it's difficult to get a less efficient sub 😉
With multiples w-bin's can be used down to 40 Hz but they won't do sub.
There is more program material at higher frequencies so if you make for a higher low pass the amps and speakers get more signal. Clipping basically means the amp is at his max, so 1200 W in case of the Crest.
If you want sub you might better look for a bandpass design like the X1 or similair or just use more CV's to get lower horn extension.
With kind regards Johan
As it has been said, those W bins are not plain subwoofers, but bass systems that will probably be efficient from 50Hz to 250Hz.
Placing them in groups improves lower octave quite dramatically, but you would probably require to place eight together in order to get decent 30Hz efficiency.
Actually, these bins are probably going to do better the 100Hz job that those 15" are doing now (assuming that they are direct radiators, or are the Cerwin Vegas horns?).
Placing them in groups improves lower octave quite dramatically, but you would probably require to place eight together in order to get decent 30Hz efficiency.
Actually, these bins are probably going to do better the 100Hz job that those 15" are doing now (assuming that they are direct radiators, or are the Cerwin Vegas horns?).
no the cerwin vegas are full range speakers . Int252. i just need more powerful bass for dance music mainly. i'll try to work the w bins from 50 to 125 Hz . if i get at least a good punch out of them i am happy . can it be done with just 2 bins? actually i built the bins in the first place because i needed further bass throw as these parties are held outside. before i was using 2 ev eliminators dual 18" front radiating . powerful when close but bass power dimishes quickly as you move further away.
thanks
Bernard
thanks
Bernard
Punch frequency range is 50Hz to 250Hz, so using a higher crossover may help a bit.
However, you will probably need more W bins to achieve what you want (some SPL in at some distance). Also, try to place together the ones that you already have, don't split them one in each side.
Note that frequencies above 80Hz (punch!) tend to travel quite badly through the air surrounding the bodies of the people in a crowd, so they should be radiated from a certain height, at least one meter. That certainly calls for a stack of bass bins slightly lifted from the floor, but lifting a set of only one or two bins too much may cause other trouble because the floor helps them in the lower octave below 80Hz, and efficiency there is going to suffer as lift distance increases (that phenomena does not happen when more bins are placed together).
Anyway, you are going to obtain far more punch and far more "longer throw" (less attenuation with distance) with properly set up bass horns than with any direct radiator. Remember to try different polarities and delays in the crossover until you find a way to get proper summing (if you don't have electronic delay, try physical delay if practical, by adding up to one meter of offset in favour of the bins or the direct radiators). Two systems are summing properly when a clear notch (cancellation, lack of SPL) is perceived if the polarity of one of them is toggled.
However, you will probably need more W bins to achieve what you want (some SPL in at some distance). Also, try to place together the ones that you already have, don't split them one in each side.
Note that frequencies above 80Hz (punch!) tend to travel quite badly through the air surrounding the bodies of the people in a crowd, so they should be radiated from a certain height, at least one meter. That certainly calls for a stack of bass bins slightly lifted from the floor, but lifting a set of only one or two bins too much may cause other trouble because the floor helps them in the lower octave below 80Hz, and efficiency there is going to suffer as lift distance increases (that phenomena does not happen when more bins are placed together).
Anyway, you are going to obtain far more punch and far more "longer throw" (less attenuation with distance) with properly set up bass horns than with any direct radiator. Remember to try different polarities and delays in the crossover until you find a way to get proper summing (if you don't have electronic delay, try physical delay if practical, by adding up to one meter of offset in favour of the bins or the direct radiators). Two systems are summing properly when a clear notch (cancellation, lack of SPL) is perceived if the polarity of one of them is toggled.
eva ,i stacked both of them on top of each other as you told me. now i am working them from 40Hz to 120Hz at 24db/octave. the punch is better than i expected and they don't pop at all. i am happy with them now. one last thing , their design is not a sealed chamber but a vented one and i applied 1 inch acoustic foam to all chamber walls except baffle and vent. am i losing any efficiency?
what exactly is the purpose of damping material?
thanks to all that helped
what exactly is the purpose of damping material?
thanks to all that helped
If they're vented you should check out the tuning frequency and put a highpass/lowcut on or just beneath the tuning. This way you don't spoil your applied power and get maximum powerhandling (unless you cut higher).
Damping material is used to avoid standing waves (not neccesary in the frequency area you use the w-bins) and to create more virtual volume (the driver behaves like it's in a bigger box).
With kind regards Johan
Damping material is used to avoid standing waves (not neccesary in the frequency area you use the w-bins) and to create more virtual volume (the driver behaves like it's in a bigger box).
With kind regards Johan
Since the back chamber is vented, you will be certainly attenuating the low octave by placing too much foam. In bass enclosures, I would only place such foam in parallel walls, and only in one of the two opposite ones. You may wish to try removing foam progressively and comparing the result.
Also, in such a vented horn hybrid, tuning the back chamber is quite tricky. Since you want them also to play sub-bass, optimum tuning would probably be around 37Hz, and that will improve power handling in the lower octave. You will have to use an adjustable frequency generator and find a way to sense cone displacement without dismantling the bins in order to check tuning. Two things happen at tuning frequency: Cone displacement is minimum and increases if frequency is either increased or decreased, and vent air speed becomes remarkable at that frequency. Don't use any crossover or filter during that test.
BTW: Consider building another pair. I like them so much that I even have a custom folded bass horn with a 15" driver and a vented rear chamber in my room 😀 I dislike bass output from "Hi-Fi" direct radiators, they seem always boomy and tiny once you get used to good horns.
Also, in such a vented horn hybrid, tuning the back chamber is quite tricky. Since you want them also to play sub-bass, optimum tuning would probably be around 37Hz, and that will improve power handling in the lower octave. You will have to use an adjustable frequency generator and find a way to sense cone displacement without dismantling the bins in order to check tuning. Two things happen at tuning frequency: Cone displacement is minimum and increases if frequency is either increased or decreased, and vent air speed becomes remarkable at that frequency. Don't use any crossover or filter during that test.
BTW: Consider building another pair. I like them so much that I even have a custom folded bass horn with a 15" driver and a vented rear chamber in my room 😀 I dislike bass output from "Hi-Fi" direct radiators, they seem always boomy and tiny once you get used to good horns.
so i should cut off frequency just below the port tuning frequency?
how do i find the tuning frequency? sorry but i m new to diy . the port is rectangular 600mm x 31mm and is 133 mm long. that is 133mm deep inside the box. will also try removing gradually the foam. should i take readings with spl meter or whichever sounds better?
thanks
Bernard
Please visit my new thread "1850 Folded Horns" i need tips and advice on these.
how do i find the tuning frequency? sorry but i m new to diy . the port is rectangular 600mm x 31mm and is 133 mm long. that is 133mm deep inside the box. will also try removing gradually the foam. should i take readings with spl meter or whichever sounds better?
thanks
Bernard
Please visit my new thread "1850 Folded Horns" i need tips and advice on these.
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