At the cost of seeming recklessly arrogant for daring to question the "authority" of the elders and betters, Broskie amongst them, to my personal taste Aikido stages sound dull and in some ways constrained.
Like most people on this forum, I am no electronic superguru, I have simply followed the well treaded paths and have experimented with stages of all types, cathode followers, srpps, White cathodes and of course Aikidos. With the greatest respect for Mr. Broskie's outstanding output of design and logic and sheer work, I feel that it remains a brilliant example of innovative theoretical design, but possibly, specifically BECAUSE of its noise nulling function, it kills the explosive thrill of music. To my very personal way of hearing, the simple common cathode stage, when interstage coupled and beautifully "supplied" offers a listening experience that few other human inventions match.
I stand to be chastized !!!
What tubes and B+ did you use with Aikido?
I suppose, you do realize that you are tacitly suggesting that the excitement you otherwise obtain is due to some non-neutral interaction with the power supply?
I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but yes, I guess I am tacitly implying that. But more to the point, do you have any aikido stages in your listening settup or settups?
I have tried aikidos with ecc86 at 24V, 6SN7 at 250V, 12AU7 at 250V and ecc88 at 270V. They all worked fine but always left me with the same sensation of compression.
I have tried aikidos with ecc86 at 24V, 6SN7 at 250V, 12AU7 at 250V and ecc88 at 270V. They all worked fine but always left me with the same sensation of compression.
Ken, regarding the non-neutral interaction with the power supply, do you have the means to really ascertain that the Aikido's interaction with PS is truly "neutral"? And even postulating that it were, the subsequent power stages of your amplifing machine would therefore not be.
I'm sure that the molecular clusters of varnish on a Stradivari interact in a non-neutral fashion with the surrounding air molecules, but this does not prevent your ears from knowing that the sound is exquisite.
I'm sure that the molecular clusters of varnish on a Stradivari interact in a non-neutral fashion with the surrounding air molecules, but this does not prevent your ears from knowing that the sound is exquisite.
Interesting, there are lots of people who thinks Aikido is best preamp they have ever heard. You are second person who thinks Aikido´s dynamics is somewhat limited.
Have you tried running Aikido at much higher supply voltage? Say 350-400V B+? In my experience higher voltage better the sound - more open, crisp and dynamic. But watch for maximum of heater to cathode voltage.
Ken, regarding the non-neutral interaction with the power supply, do you have the means to really ascertain that the Aikido's interaction with PS is truly "neutral"? And even postulating that it were, the subsequent power stages of your amplifing machine would therefore not be.
I'm sure that the molecular clusters of varnish on a Stradivari interact in a non-neutral fashion with the surrounding air molecules, but this does not prevent your ears from knowing that the sound is exquisite.
Federico, I have not listened to an Aikido, but my comment wasn't intended as a defense of that design. I was merely pointing out the implication of your comment. As far as the subject of any interaction between an Aikido stage and it's power supply, my understanding of what the Aikido aims for is reduced interaction, not a total absence from it. The possible non-neutrality of subsequent circuitry is hardly something the Aikido can address. We take advantage of opportunities to improve circuit behavior where we can.
I suggest that the Stradivari analogy is false. Instruments are music producers, and should make their own characteristic sounds. Home audio equipment is a music re-producer, and should not make it's own characteristic sound. Equipment which does otherwise is altering the exquisite sound produced by the Stradivari varnish.
Ken, yours is a valid philosophical point distinguishing between production and reproductionof music. However my argument is that in the production, AND reproduction of sound, our understanding of the variables and interactions is still fairly elementary, not to say crude. The proof is that if our understanding were better, we would be able to reproduce Stradivaris instead of paying 2.4 million dollars to by a wooden box made by a guy in Cremona 300 years ago. I don't claim to have a sophisticated understanding of the variables of amplification, but I do claim that my ears are hearing a dull sound, and I was curious to know if anyone else out there was hearing the same dullness.
Two things to comment on this:federico said:
1. You appear still to be mixing music making with music reproduction. A violin makes music in a particular mechanical way; we are talking about reproducing music in a particular electrical way. Knowledge about how violins work would not even contribute much to loudspeaker design (as there we are aiming at the opposite of a violin), let alone amplifier design.
2. Are we certain that people would still choose that particular old violin if they didn't know who made it? How many of those millions are paying for a famous historical object, and how many for a working musical instrument?
A common and thoroughly incorrect trope in the fashion audio world. In any case, the best way to judge whether you are unhappy with a neutral box of gain and want some "special effects" or whether the Aikido is distorting the signal in some way unknown to engineering is to do an ears-only level matched comparison between input and output. If you can't reliably tell the difference using ears alone (no peeking), then you have your answer.
Many people want their preamp to do something beyond "make a small voltage bigger," and if so, they will not be happy with the Aikido circuits, which primarily just amplify.
Knowledge about how violins work would not even contribute much to loudspeaker desig
DF96, with complete respect for your point of view, please do not assume that I have difficulty in differentiating between making music and music reproduction. As a particle physicist, let me assure you that what happens in a violin holds not few similiarities to what happens in a loudspeaker. If we start to analyze a few levels deeper than the gross mechanics, the mathematics of gas particle/surface interaction still challenge our total comprehension. And if this were not the case, all of our audio systems and all of our instruments would sound "perfectly". Which they don't.
Just for the record, Stradivaris, Amatis and Guarneris are normally bought by famous orchestras and musicians to be used for premium performances and recordings, and even those in private collections are regularly used for such events.
DF96, with complete respect for your point of view, please do not assume that I have difficulty in differentiating between making music and music reproduction. As a particle physicist, let me assure you that what happens in a violin holds not few similiarities to what happens in a loudspeaker. If we start to analyze a few levels deeper than the gross mechanics, the mathematics of gas particle/surface interaction still challenge our total comprehension. And if this were not the case, all of our audio systems and all of our instruments would sound "perfectly". Which they don't.
Just for the record, Stradivaris, Amatis and Guarneris are normally bought by famous orchestras and musicians to be used for premium performances and recordings, and even those in private collections are regularly used for such events.
A common and thoroughly incorrect trope in the fashion audio world.
Objection your honour !
You are totally free to disagree with anything I say without alluding that I, or my opinions, belong to a trope of your invention such as the "fashion audio world".
Secondly the "best way to judge" is just a personal opinion which you hold, which incidentally could quite simply be taken apart from a scientific point of view. Additionally, just what is going to match the level between input and output without itself interacting with the signal in your ears only test ?
Thirdly your reference to "many people" is extremely condescending towards those same people (who presumably are this forum) by assuming that they want their preamps to do something behond "make a small voltage bigger,". Unless of course you meant : me, and in which case it would have been more polite just to say just that. Furthermore, if making small voltages bigger were a straightforward affair, this forum would not exist.
Finally, could we not, please, have a community in which a member is entitled to say that he, with due respect, finds the sound of Aikido's dull and would like to know if others have had the same experience/reaction ? Maybe we could form a little club of people with fashionably imperfect ears ?
Objection your honour !
You are totally free to disagree with anything I say without alluding that I, or my opinions, belong to a trope of your invention such as the "fashion audio world".
Secondly the "best way to judge" is just a personal opinion which you hold, which incidentally could quite simply be taken apart from a scientific point of view. Additionally, just what is going to match the level between input and output without itself interacting with the signal in your ears only test ?
Thirdly your reference to "many people" is extremely condescending towards those same people (who presumably are this forum) by assuming that they want their preamps to do something behond "make a small voltage bigger,". Unless of course you meant : me, and in which case it would have been more polite just to say just that. Furthermore, if making small voltages bigger were a straightforward affair, this forum would not exist.
Finally, could we not, please, have a community in which a member is entitled to say that he, with due respect, finds the sound of Aikido's dull and would like to know if others have had the same experience/reaction ? Maybe we could form a little club of people with fashionably imperfect ears ?
I have an Aikido (actually I bought it for my brother) and found the choice of rectifier to be crucial to the dynamics. I had the stock chinese in there but it had a shrill to it. I then installed a Mullard and dynamics compressed and everything went dull. Then I tried a GE copper plate and all was well in Audioville. I did roll the 6SN7s but none of them had any effect on the dynamics, they had effects but just not the dynamics. The rectifiers were all 5AR4s so the PS has more to do with the dynamics than anything else IMO, even the caps didn't effect dynamics which I ended up using K40Y-9s.
DanL
DanL
35 years ago I too was a particle physicist. I too have a tendency to lean towards reductionism, but I don't assume that even perfect knowledge of gas/surface interactions would enable perfect sound reproduction or perfect violins. Physics only has limited success at applying results from one level of abstraction to other levels of abstraction.
The fact that famous violins are used for prestigious music events does not guarantee that the bulk of their monetary value derives from their sound. Musicians can be more influenced by fashion even than audiophiles. The violins are often owned by rich patrons so it is they who set the prices. They would probably continue to pay these prices even if a modern version was every bit as good for making music. Hence the price of a Stradivarius tells us nothing about our knowledge of amplifier design, and very little about our knowledge of acoustics.
The fact that famous violins are used for prestigious music events does not guarantee that the bulk of their monetary value derives from their sound. Musicians can be more influenced by fashion even than audiophiles. The violins are often owned by rich patrons so it is they who set the prices. They would probably continue to pay these prices even if a modern version was every bit as good for making music. Hence the price of a Stradivarius tells us nothing about our knowledge of amplifier design, and very little about our knowledge of acoustics.
I think tubes are voltage device. Thus it is important how voltages are converted to current step by step through amplifying stages. What I mean here is, line level tube amplifier cannot be seen as separated object from the whole amplification system.
For solid-state final stage, most simple tube preamp is not good enough because of the damping may be. And here is where Aikido excel imo. It is better than a mu-follower.
But for simple all tube amplification system (and speaker too), I can understand if Aikido can become duller in comparison. I think very high quality (interstage) transformers are mandatory for a better tube system. Common cathode is just complement to that. No secret here. Everyone has ears
Well, since I bothered to build, measure, and level-match compare input to output of Aikido, I have trouble working up your level of indignation.
If you want your preamps to add a little artificial excitement, you can certainly design them to do that- after all, you are your own customer. But unless you've done a level-matched ears-only comparison of input to output of a circuit, claiming it's "dull" without doing the experiments to confirm that is certainly your right, but don't be surprised if people point out the combination of implausibility and lack of verification.
I am ever surprised when people who want their preamps or amps to be effects boxes feel the need to deny (often very emotionally) that this is what they're after. I would think that defining your target precisely would be beneficial toward achieving your goal.
If you want your preamps to add a little artificial excitement, you can certainly design them to do that- after all, you are your own customer. But unless you've done a level-matched ears-only comparison of input to output of a circuit, claiming it's "dull" without doing the experiments to confirm that is certainly your right, but don't be surprised if people point out the combination of implausibility and lack of verification.
I am ever surprised when people who want their preamps or amps to be effects boxes feel the need to deny (often very emotionally) that this is what they're after. I would think that defining your target precisely would be beneficial toward achieving your goal.
For solid-state final stage, most simple tube preamp is not good enough because of th
Hi Jay. Thanks for your thoughts. I personally agree totally about interstage transformers. However, my first dull experience with Aikido was exactly driving a solid state mosfet output. Whereas I then built a common cathode/interstage circuit to drive the mosfet output and the results are breathtaking.
There are of course many parameters to bear in mind, but nonetheless, in this straight switch, there is no doubt about what configuration I kept !
Hi Jay. Thanks for your thoughts. I personally agree totally about interstage transformers. However, my first dull experience with Aikido was exactly driving a solid state mosfet output. Whereas I then built a common cathode/interstage circuit to drive the mosfet output and the results are breathtaking.
There are of course many parameters to bear in mind, but nonetheless, in this straight switch, there is no doubt about what configuration I kept !
Well, since I bothered to build, measure, and level-match compare input to output of
SY, it certainly is not my ambition to cross scienctific-philosophic swords with you over the web, so please accept apologies.
A genuine question : so did you end up keeping any Aikido circuitry in your preferred listening devices ?
SY, it certainly is not my ambition to cross scienctific-philosophic swords with you over the web, so please accept apologies.
A genuine question : so did you end up keeping any Aikido circuitry in your preferred listening devices ?
Tricky question. I use psychological phenomena like this to help me understand things in audio.
I have built many aikidos, but I didn't use any of them. I have seen also many audiophile friends who built it and leave it behind.
Can you share some schematics info? Is that class-A mosfet (F4)?
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