I want to build a small bookshelf (about 7 litres) with a 5" - 5,5" driver on a bit of a budget.
Option 1 is Visaton W130S and Visaton DT94
Option 2 is DA DC130B-8 and DA DC25T-8
The Visaton looks like it will go to 40 Hz or so (-10 dB) and the DA looks like it will go to 50 Hz. Is this realistic? Would the DA be a better quality driver? Is the DA tweeter really better than the Visaton DT94?
I'm keen on a rigid dome tweeter.
I'm leaning to the DA, but I'm scared the DA won't give the bass extension that the Visaton would.
Option 1 is Visaton W130S and Visaton DT94
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Option 2 is DA DC130B-8 and DA DC25T-8
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The Visaton looks like it will go to 40 Hz or so (-10 dB) and the DA looks like it will go to 50 Hz. Is this realistic? Would the DA be a better quality driver? Is the DA tweeter really better than the Visaton DT94?
I'm keen on a rigid dome tweeter.
I'm leaning to the DA, but I'm scared the DA won't give the bass extension that the Visaton would.
I have built a smaller bookshelf 2 way based on W130S-8 and G20 once and it was/is performing marvelously at my place and later at a friend's. This tweeter is similar sounding to a Dynaudio D21/2 unit and the latter one is legendary. I have never tried DT 94 though.
I have used the Visaton DT94 for replacements in a pair of Canton Karat 60.
Very impressed for the money spent and even better than the original.
That said I would probably go Visaton.
"Curves" also look "better".
Very impressed for the money spent and even better than the original.
That said I would probably go Visaton.
"Curves" also look "better".
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"Geography is Destiny"
Have you priced parts for a bookshelf kit from SB Acoustics in Indonesia like the ARA, or the larger 15liter EKA with SB26STAC tweeter and 6" SB17NRXC35-4 woofer which will produce strong 42Hz bass?
Detailed kit plans are on the SB Acoustics website. Total cost probably depends on what your local dealers stock(China vs. Indonesia)
Have you priced parts for a bookshelf kit from SB Acoustics in Indonesia like the ARA, or the larger 15liter EKA with SB26STAC tweeter and 6" SB17NRXC35-4 woofer which will produce strong 42Hz bass?
Detailed kit plans are on the SB Acoustics website. Total cost probably depends on what your local dealers stock(China vs. Indonesia)
Thank you for the replies. I have access to Visaton, but at an astronomical price. Delivery from parts express works out alright, and the Dayton stuff isn't as expensive. I can also get FedEx from Visaton directly, and that's probably my best option.
I'm very glad to hear about good performance from DT94 and W130S, thank you for sharing that!
I think I'll go with Visaton then, but let me see what cost is for delivery from Germany. I think I'll get components in South Africa, and make the coils myself.
I'm very glad to hear about good performance from DT94 and W130S, thank you for sharing that!
I think I'll go with Visaton then, but let me see what cost is for delivery from Germany. I think I'll get components in South Africa, and make the coils myself.
The perspective with Visaton WxxxS family of drivers is very good, humbly looking units, not modern by today's standards but have got all one may want from it to perform transparantly, assuming one does not have anything against these based on usual beliefs. I have tested and built W250S-8, W200S-8, W170S-8, W170S-4, and W130S-8 and I could always recommend these as super solid. A larger enclosure volume is always better whenever you work with medium sized magnets (Qts of range 0.55) as is the case with W130S-8. A 4 ohm version may better suit your application, a trick that manufacturers use frequently. You know, louder is better.
edit: I forgot to state my agreement with Line Sources's notion on destiny.
edit: I forgot to state my agreement with Line Sources's notion on destiny.
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Thanks for that. I am impressed with the W170S.
I think your idea of a 4 ohm is fantastic; I actually started designing a 4 ohm, but it never crossed my mind to apply it to this project. I thought of increasing the box to about 9.5L, but it might be a bit big. Perhaps that's as big as I'll go.
LineSource, I wanted to say thanks, but I'm not after a kit. It anyway doesn't actually make sense for me here in South Africa.
I think your idea of a 4 ohm is fantastic; I actually started designing a 4 ohm, but it never crossed my mind to apply it to this project. I thought of increasing the box to about 9.5L, but it might be a bit big. Perhaps that's as big as I'll go.
LineSource, I wanted to say thanks, but I'm not after a kit. It anyway doesn't actually make sense for me here in South Africa.
KIT = Expert engineers at SB Acoustics give their best effort to design a world class speaker. Several test cabinets and crossovers are built and measured in a lab until the design manager is satisfied. SB offers FREE complete plans with proven measurements for the cabinet and crossover. You can purchase the separate parts anywhere in the Universe, or wind your own inductors. Naturally, changing cabinet dimensions will affect the polar pattern, edge diffraction, and baffle step effects. Lab measurements trump simulation curves.
Sorry if I sound like preaching from on top of a soapbox.
I have built 3 excellent speakers using SB Acoustics drivers and I am sure you would favor the SB26STAC tweeter and SB17NRXC35-4 woofer if you could afford the South Africa pricing. A smart-phone mic cost $20, a USB PC mic cost $75 plus ship. Measure twice, cut once 🙂
Dayton Audio iMM-6 Calibrated Measurement Microphone for Tablets iPhone iPad and Android
Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone (my mic)
I have built 3 excellent speakers using SB Acoustics drivers and I am sure you would favor the SB26STAC tweeter and SB17NRXC35-4 woofer if you could afford the South Africa pricing. A smart-phone mic cost $20, a USB PC mic cost $75 plus ship. Measure twice, cut once 🙂
Dayton Audio iMM-6 Calibrated Measurement Microphone for Tablets iPhone iPad and Android
Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone (my mic)
I will definitely get a calibrated mic. That minidsp one looks like it will fit my purpose / methods better. Thanks!
The SB Acoustics I looked at were low Fs, low Q drivers. I'm not sure how that works (no experience). They're also a little expensive.
I simulated another option, and that is using a W170S-4 in a 11.5L sealed box. That one seems to simulate well. A little more crossover, including a notch, baffle-step correction, and tweeter correction. But nothing unexpected. I will see how it goes the next few weeks.
The SB Acoustics I looked at were low Fs, low Q drivers. I'm not sure how that works (no experience). They're also a little expensive.
I simulated another option, and that is using a W170S-4 in a 11.5L sealed box. That one seems to simulate well. A little more crossover, including a notch, baffle-step correction, and tweeter correction. But nothing unexpected. I will see how it goes the next few weeks.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The bump at ~1300 Hz will be dominant, trust me, you really want to get rid of it. The bass also plays waay too high and over a much to wide range together with the tweeter.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Again, the bump. It's even worse, 4 dB peak at 1400 Hz and wide, that will sound dominant, maybe even nasty. If you can't get rid of it, use a notch filter in parallel. A lower xo frequency would be better.
The bump seems to come mainly from the small, narrow baffle, you can smoothen it a bit by generously rounding the edges.
Thank you. I was worried about that bump, so thanks for confirming that. I tried a notch for it, but the effort and expense I didn't think was worth it yet - I first wanted to try a W170S as an alternative. It looks a lot better.
This one is 21 cm wide and 36 cm high. It's an 11.5 L closed box. The cost difference between W130S and W170S is minimal, if anything at all.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This one is 21 cm wide and 36 cm high. It's an 11.5 L closed box. The cost difference between W130S and W170S is minimal, if anything at all.
That looks a lot better. I'm sure the sound impression is improved a lot already compared to the former version. I'd try to reduce the little hunch at 2kHz a bit further, maybe by reducing the value of the 2nd capacitor. That will rise the crossover point a bit but that's no problem. You could also implement a small bypass-C over the resistors to improve the brilliance range on the top end.
Edit: The tiny bump at 2kHz is probably not needed to flatten, you have to listen to it. Try it and if it's dominant, maybe change the crossover. I'd do the bypass C in any case though.
Edit: The tiny bump at 2kHz is probably not needed to flatten, you have to listen to it. Try it and if it's dominant, maybe change the crossover. I'd do the bypass C in any case though.
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Good idea, thanks - I'll do that - very easy.
The bump at 2 kHz should be fine. I found that this driver doesn't respond strongly enough around the higher midrange. I found voices lacking with my first use of the W170S, so I kept a bump (about 4 or 5 dB) with my MTM build. Works very well in real life. But, as you say, I need to listen.
Either way, I have been quoted favourably on the W130S, so I think I'm going back to the smaller bookshelf. I'll keep the W170S bookshelf design because I like it, and the crossover is quite simple. I managed a fairly nice design with the W130S after a bit of redesigning, but that bypass capacitor is a great idea!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You might want to run a few extra pre-purchase sims of other popular crossover circuits.
You might find that a small set of extra L-R-C crossover parts will allow you to experiment with a few other designs.
_On a flat baffle, BW3 on the tweeter and LR2 on the midbass uses the extra phase shift to mimic T-M physical offset
_BW3 on the tweeter plus BW3 on the midbass produces constant power. Favorite old-school xover.
_in some designs, reversed-BW3 on the tweeter plus +BW3 on the midbass produces very low phase shift to mimic the physical offset.
_Creating a stepped baffle which removes T-M physical offset, with -LR2 / +LR2 crossover for phase compensation is popular.
Attachments
And I will definitely, thank you. I'm actually keen to build a few different (short-listed) designs to measure and listen to. The only constraint is that I need to try to keep component count to a minimum without compromising quality.
I like the design because I've used something similar, which was my third crossover in the design, and I preferred it over the previous two (obviously there are other factors), but it just seems to have the best transition between M and T, and I haven't yet been able to hear cone or tweeter break up (and I've pushed the speakers very hard).
Enjoy:
Favorite reasonably priced tweeter not horn-loaded (..though I've not heard the slightly larger SB29SDAC-C000-4, and might well prefer it.)
I'd actually go for the smaller poly Mg-filled 5 1/2" SBAcoustics SB15MFC30-4 (..it doesn't give up much low freq. extension vs. the 6".)
The 8 ohm version of the SBAcoustics driver is measured here:
Zaph|Audio
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/SBAcoustics-SB15MFC30-8-TS.gif
I believe forum member augerpro (Brandon) has done a design with both drivers (..though maybe it was the 6" version of the SB poly.)
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