I'm interested in using speakers by the German manufacturer, Visaton, and I'd appreciate any comments for or against these particular drivers. The design I would like to build is the Vox 252 using the KE 25 SC tweeter, AL 130 mids and the TIW 250 woofer. Anyone built and or using this speaker?
Cheers,😉
Cheers,😉
phibes said:
We don't get much Visaton here, but i've had a opportunity to have used the B200 for the last couple months, and it is outstanding (ie a testimonial that they do build some excellent drivers)
dave
Not used these drivers but a predecessor to TIW 250 from early 90´s, white pulp cone and good chassis. These are used in large studio monitors in my workshop and are realy good, also seems indestructable. They used ro have an excelent ribbon tweeter too, dont remember the name, with both decent power handling and good eficiency, 92 dB.
Unfortunately there is no real agency for Visaton in Sweden anymore..
Unfortunately there is no real agency for Visaton in Sweden anymore..
http://www.visaton.com/cgi/VisatonFramed.asp?Sprache=english&Artikel_ID=607
Details can be found here.
🙂 sreten.
Details can be found here.
🙂 sreten.
At 84dB / 4 ohm , i.e. real 81dB/W efficiency they will need lots
and lots of juice to get going, but at least bass should be good.
IMO they will be hopeless in a big room.
Smallish room and > 100W to drive them fine.
Small valve amplifiers are out of the question.
🙂 sreten.
and lots of juice to get going, but at least bass should be good.
IMO they will be hopeless in a big room.
Smallish room and > 100W to drive them fine.
Small valve amplifiers are out of the question.
🙂 sreten.
me and my friends are using several predecessors of the drivers you want to use. i can say that visaton drivers in general have an outstanding performance compared to theyr cost, at least in my opinion.
i've heard only the best about the tweeters KE 25 SC, the membrane is made out of ceramic, and they are used in many different speakers...
the ribbon tweeters mr.ahlberg mentioned are the RHT 13 AW , i think.
i gladly own a pair of them too, they are excelent, hard to get and nearly legendary in germany...
Build the Vox 252, you won't be disappointed !
i've heard only the best about the tweeters KE 25 SC, the membrane is made out of ceramic, and they are used in many different speakers...
the ribbon tweeters mr.ahlberg mentioned are the RHT 13 AW , i think.
i gladly own a pair of them too, they are excelent, hard to get and nearly legendary in germany...
Build the Vox 252, you won't be disappointed !
Thanks everyone for your comments regarding the Visaton Vox 252. These are not inexpensive speakers compared to the other design [Eros MkII] I've been looking at......so I have some decision making to do! The decision to make these speakers started out as something simple as a second system for our Rumpus room, however, my short list is now somewhat more hi-end than I originally envisaged.
Sreten, why do you think they will not perform in a large room? The room they will be in is 6m x 4.5m x2.5m, however, on one side it is open for approximately 70% of its length to a family room & kitchen area that measures 8.5m x 4.5m x 2.5m. If your observations are correct, they may not be a suitable choice. The Vox 252 design has the 10" bass driver firing from the outer side of each enclosure. My room arrangement will have the LHS enclosure's bass driver firing into the large family/kitchen area.
The amp I have for these speakers will not have a problem supplying the juice!
Cheers,
😉 😉
Sreten, why do you think they will not perform in a large room? The room they will be in is 6m x 4.5m x2.5m, however, on one side it is open for approximately 70% of its length to a family room & kitchen area that measures 8.5m x 4.5m x 2.5m. If your observations are correct, they may not be a suitable choice. The Vox 252 design has the 10" bass driver firing from the outer side of each enclosure. My room arrangement will have the LHS enclosure's bass driver firing into the large family/kitchen area.
The amp I have for these speakers will not have a problem supplying the juice!
Cheers,
😉 😉
The Visatons nominal power handling indicates a 100w/8ohm
amplifier that doubles power into 4 ohms. the peak rating
indicates to me a 200W/8ohm amplifier maximum.
The Eros PL18 specifications indicate a similar rating.
However at 90dB/2.83V the Eros is 6dB louder than the 252 84dB/2.83V.
So peak levels will differ by 6dB which in a large room could
be very significant, depending on the levels you listen at.
With a smaller high quality amplifier the differences would be
much more important depending on the size of the room.
However the 252 lower sensitivity does promise better bass
extension performance than the Eros, though the PL18 units
are ideal for an overdamped bass reflex alignment.
All depends on what listening levels you use, and
is less important if you have plenty of juice on tap.
Generating good low bass levels in a room with your
total volume is not a trivial task to say the least.
🙂 sreten.
amplifier that doubles power into 4 ohms. the peak rating
indicates to me a 200W/8ohm amplifier maximum.
The Eros PL18 specifications indicate a similar rating.
However at 90dB/2.83V the Eros is 6dB louder than the 252 84dB/2.83V.
So peak levels will differ by 6dB which in a large room could
be very significant, depending on the levels you listen at.
With a smaller high quality amplifier the differences would be
much more important depending on the size of the room.
However the 252 lower sensitivity does promise better bass
extension performance than the Eros, though the PL18 units
are ideal for an overdamped bass reflex alignment.
All depends on what listening levels you use, and
is less important if you have plenty of juice on tap.
Generating good low bass levels in a room with your
total volume is not a trivial task to say the least.
🙂 sreten.
@ sreten
84dB @ 1W =/= 84dB @ 2.84V
as always visaton states there sound pressure ratings @ 1W
still its very very low, you'l need a BIG amp
84dB @ 1W =/= 84dB @ 2.84V
as always visaton states there sound pressure ratings @ 1W
still its very very low, you'l need a BIG amp
Rudy said:@ sreten
84dB @ 1W =/= 84dB @ 2.84V
as always visaton states there sound pressure ratings @ 1W
still its very very low, you'l need a BIG amp
I can't see any evidence of this, its impossible to use actual SPL/W/M
due to impedance variations, all the design indications are that :
its 84dB/2.83V@1m for 4 ohms . i.e. 2W = 81dB/W@1m nominal.
The Eros is 90.5dB/2.83V@1m for 4 ohms = 87.5dB/W@1m nominal.
Only for 8 ohm speakers does dB/2.83V = dB/W.
If your amp can't handle 4 ohms well 81dB/W is very real.
🙂 sreten.
sreten said:
i fully agree, but @ visaton on the website 84dB/1W ( it's 4 ohm) , and so does the graphic on the website 😉
Also note according to the construction details
the bass unit is no longer available.
Does seem a little odd using an 8 ohm bass unit
with 4 ohm midrange (2 8's in parallel).
Perhaps the design is due to be updated.
🙂 sreten.
the bass unit is no longer available.
Does seem a little odd using an 8 ohm bass unit
with 4 ohm midrange (2 8's in parallel).
Perhaps the design is due to be updated.
🙂 sreten.
Rudy said:
Well analysis of the crossover and drivers seem to indicate this is not the case.
All indications are SPL/2.83V/1m is actually given.
If you are correct they would be 87dB/2.83V/1m and analysis of
the tweeter circuit needing to be 88dB indicates this is not true.
🙂 sreten.
sreten said:
thx for proving my point 🙄
pls reread your post and just admit you'r so wrong
and for the record the tweeter is 89db/1w, this is a 8ohm drive, so this means if the total speaker is 4 ohm, in total that would mean it plays at -3db -> 86dB, as you already noticed by know there or some resisters in series with the tweeter, witch if you calculate them would be around -1.5dB, very close to 84dB don't you think so ???? and thats at 1W 1M @ 4 ohm
and something usefull , why not just take the vox300 ?
yes its a little bit more expensive ( 150 euro) but its a lot more effentient and there's a lot more at the low side off the speaker
still i don't recommend the visaton speakers.
Rudy said:
A course of action I recommend.
I calculate 4.4 R in series with 6R = -4.8dB.
Which correctly pans out to what I'm saying.
How you get -1.5dB is beyond me, other than it
suits your arguement, it is however incorrect.
The bass unit due to baffle step will be ~ 83dB/2.83V/1m.
Which also correctly pans out to what I'm saying.
I don't like being forced to labour this point.
🙂 sreten.
lets see
tweeter is 89dB @ 1W @ 8E, so thats 2.84V ?
now, there is a resister in series ... 4.4 E, and the tweeter being 8E
1 -> (2.84 * 8) / (8 +4.4) = 1.83V over the tweeter
2 -> P = 1.638² / 8 = 0.419W
3 -> so dB loss = 10 * log ( 0.419 ) = -3.5
that makes 89 - 3.5 = 85.5 @ 2.84V
dunno what i did wrong, dunno what you did wrong
and for the record, 8 or 6 makes not 0.5dB differance, so i'll let that out
baffle responce on a subwoofer ?
tweeter is 89dB @ 1W @ 8E, so thats 2.84V ?
now, there is a resister in series ... 4.4 E, and the tweeter being 8E
1 -> (2.84 * 8) / (8 +4.4) = 1.83V over the tweeter
2 -> P = 1.638² / 8 = 0.419W
3 -> so dB loss = 10 * log ( 0.419 ) = -3.5
that makes 89 - 3.5 = 85.5 @ 2.84V
dunno what i did wrong, dunno what you did wrong
and for the record, 8 or 6 makes not 0.5dB differance, so i'll let that out
baffle responce on a subwoofer ?
I'd use 20log[8/(8+4.4] = -3.8dB.
(check : 20log[8/(8+8)] = -6dB)
Doing it your way (but V=2.83V) I get 1.826V,
P = Vsquared/R = 0.417W, 10log = -3.8dB.
However inspection of driver and impedance curve indicate
6R is a better driver estimate over most of the passband.
20log(6/10.4) = -4.8dB.
Either way with 1dB difference 87dB/2.83V/1m is not possible.
All drivers measured on a large flat baffle will measure 6dB lower
when mounted in a speakers cabinet measured in anechoic
conditions well below the baffle step frequency of the cabinet.
So this generally applies to all bass only units.
🙂 sreten.
P.S. I can't see I've done anything wrong.
(check : 20log[8/(8+8)] = -6dB)
Doing it your way (but V=2.83V) I get 1.826V,
P = Vsquared/R = 0.417W, 10log = -3.8dB.
However inspection of driver and impedance curve indicate
6R is a better driver estimate over most of the passband.
20log(6/10.4) = -4.8dB.
Either way with 1dB difference 87dB/2.83V/1m is not possible.
All drivers measured on a large flat baffle will measure 6dB lower
when mounted in a speakers cabinet measured in anechoic
conditions well below the baffle step frequency of the cabinet.
So this generally applies to all bass only units.
🙂 sreten.
P.S. I can't see I've done anything wrong.
Thanks for your comments Rudy and Sreten......sorry my thread seems to have caused some angst, going by your discourse over the math.
I've had a closer look at the Visaton drivers and in conjunction with your comments, I'm sufficiently disuaded from purchasing the German speakers.
The Eros design looks like it will be more suitable to my application and besides, they are less than half the price of the Vox 252. At that rate I'll have more than enough change over to add a decent sub if I feel the bass extension is not low or strong enough from the Eros.
Cheers,😉
I've had a closer look at the Visaton drivers and in conjunction with your comments, I'm sufficiently disuaded from purchasing the German speakers.
The Eros design looks like it will be more suitable to my application and besides, they are less than half the price of the Vox 252. At that rate I'll have more than enough change over to add a decent sub if I feel the bass extension is not low or strong enough from the Eros.
Cheers,😉
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