Hi just want to know a bit more of this visaton TI100 and if the kit offered with the MHT tweeter is worth. Maybe the other arias or the bijou's... Also compared to the "kind" of "big hi end" metal cones offered by seas excel. May be is going to be more "standard" for all tastes a kit based on the W15CY magnesium cone.
Just wanted to know if anybody has had the chance to listen both or any other sugestion for a 2 way bass reflex or sealed bookshelf.
Chhers
Just wanted to know if anybody has had the chance to listen both or any other sugestion for a 2 way bass reflex or sealed bookshelf.
Chhers
Juanito, I would stay way from metal cones. That's my opinion.
Paper and Textile Dome Tweeters are the best, no issues.
If you want exotics, the ceramic dome of the VISATON KE 25 SC 8 OHM is one of the best in the world though.
As a classic mid and tweeter I have the VISATON 5" W130SC and G20SC 1" Tweeter.
Paper and Textile Dome Tweeters are the best, no issues.
If you want exotics, the ceramic dome of the VISATON KE 25 SC 8 OHM is one of the best in the world though.
As a classic mid and tweeter I have the VISATON 5" W130SC and G20SC 1" Tweeter.
I would double Inductor, stay away of metal cones. Hard to work with, present too many limitations in the useful range of a driver, sometimes cone breakup can still be heard, I hate their reproduction of female vocals and drums. Accutons I find even worse, no idea why they are so expensive.
Well, to your question, I have listened to both drivers, although with diferent implementations, didn`t like both. Assuming that you are looking only at these two drivers, I would take the Seas because of its better motor design and lighter cone. If you like hard domes, the KE25 is a good choice although I would personally prefer a coated fabric tweeter instead.
Well, to your question, I have listened to both drivers, although with diferent implementations, didn`t like both. Assuming that you are looking only at these two drivers, I would take the Seas because of its better motor design and lighter cone. If you like hard domes, the KE25 is a good choice although I would personally prefer a coated fabric tweeter instead.
juanito, metal/hard drivers have to be carefully used and filtered; for exemple the TI100 should preferably be steep filtered before 1.8kHz (H3 peak); The aria mht kit has a specified cut-of frequency of 5kHz, this is way too high, I would never build this thing because despite an apparent hard work on its filter one cannot avoid ringing at 6.5kHz coming from harmonics of lower foundamentals if these foundamentals aren't cut down.
.hifisound eShop * -* VISATON ARIA MHT KOMPLETT-BAUSATZ *
Check this:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_5INCH.htm#W15CY001+22TAF/G
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W15_Neo3.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W12.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Cup-a-Soup_copy.pdf
Be sure all of them are well engineered.
🙂
.hifisound eShop * -* VISATON ARIA MHT KOMPLETT-BAUSATZ *
Check this:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_5INCH.htm#W15CY001+22TAF/G
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W15_Neo3.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W12.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Cup-a-Soup_copy.pdf
Be sure all of them are well engineered.
🙂
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There is a difference in metal cone drivers. The "stay away from", doesn't apply to all, and to those it *might* apply to - it's largely conditional on the design.
IMO both Visaton drivers are over-priced for the level of performance.. NOT that they are bad or that you should stay away from them.
As far as a premium metal cone based two-way (small bookshelf design) is concerned, the best would likely be Jim Griffin's:
http://documents.jordan-usa.com/JX92SG2siDesignPak.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/112901-jim-griffin-jordan-aurum-cantus-pe-box.html
and in a larger design:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/81634-jordan-ribbon-mltl.html#post942200
This design was an award-winner.
You can see the Jordan driver and the Visaton measured on Zaph's website:
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio
IMO both Visaton drivers are over-priced for the level of performance.. NOT that they are bad or that you should stay away from them.
As far as a premium metal cone based two-way (small bookshelf design) is concerned, the best would likely be Jim Griffin's:
http://documents.jordan-usa.com/JX92SG2siDesignPak.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/112901-jim-griffin-jordan-aurum-cantus-pe-box.html
and in a larger design:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/81634-jordan-ribbon-mltl.html#post942200
This design was an award-winner.
You can see the Jordan driver and the Visaton measured on Zaph's website:
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio
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ScottG thanks for mentioning some of my designs. More recently I have completed designs with the several metal cone Mark Audio drivers (Alpair 6, 10, 10.2, and others).
Several of these projects have threads on this site if you search a little. My newest project is an Alpair 10.2 open baffle over an H-frame woofer.
The Mark Audio drivers evolve from the Jordan design experience (the designer Mark Fenlon previously worked for Jordan so no great surprise). Mark has significantly improved the performance of the MA drivers so they are now my favorite full range metal cone drivers. Their sound is very impressive and I highly recommend them.
Jim
Several of these projects have threads on this site if you search a little. My newest project is an Alpair 10.2 open baffle over an H-frame woofer.
The Mark Audio drivers evolve from the Jordan design experience (the designer Mark Fenlon previously worked for Jordan so no great surprise). Mark has significantly improved the performance of the MA drivers so they are now my favorite full range metal cone drivers. Their sound is very impressive and I highly recommend them.
Jim
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You're Welcome! (..and happy Thanksgiving!) 🙂
(..and for those that don't know - the Alpair 10.2 open baffle from Jim is ALSO an Award-winner. ..Though I'm sure far to large for jaunito's current requirements.)
Like the new Mark Audio drivers better? Have you done extensive measurements of them (comparable to Zaphs)? If so, please post! 🙂 Also, time to get started on a re-do of the original Jordan design then. 😉 😀
I used the TI100 from the year they where introduced.
I used them for a backloaded horn then used them in a 3 way and as last in the fatboy project.And that one is used by a brother in law who buy them from me.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/137036-big-bandpass-fatboy.html
What can I say about the sound. It sounds very clear detailed a friend of mine who uses ESL Final 1.2 and 1.4 compared the sound coming close to the ESL.
Female voices and voices generally speaking sound very good, may be a bit to much on the bright side. This brightness can be to much with poor recordings and lead to harshness.
I came a bit addicted to this clear bright sound I use now a 2" HF-driver with titanium dome and a Kugelwelllen horn from 550Hz up. To still have the clear (metal-cone) sound. The question is, is this personal taste or a better performing driver with light strong metal cone.
I think it is about using the right filter-parts and XO to get them functioning optimal. I would not use them as basmid, and combine it with a metal cone sub 10">.
I used them for a backloaded horn then used them in a 3 way and as last in the fatboy project.And that one is used by a brother in law who buy them from me.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/137036-big-bandpass-fatboy.html
What can I say about the sound. It sounds very clear detailed a friend of mine who uses ESL Final 1.2 and 1.4 compared the sound coming close to the ESL.
Female voices and voices generally speaking sound very good, may be a bit to much on the bright side. This brightness can be to much with poor recordings and lead to harshness.
I came a bit addicted to this clear bright sound I use now a 2" HF-driver with titanium dome and a Kugelwelllen horn from 550Hz up. To still have the clear (metal-cone) sound. The question is, is this personal taste or a better performing driver with light strong metal cone.
I think it is about using the right filter-parts and XO to get them functioning optimal. I would not use them as basmid, and combine it with a metal cone sub 10">.
A metal cone 2-way I would love to attempt would be an MTM with 2X Seas W22 + CSS Planar 2, crossed around 1khz.
Oh! such pitty with such negative reports for metal cones... not eaven the excel drivers??
I had in my mind the Seas TRYM kit, with the W22 magnesium cone. May be the Bifrost will do better.
What would you pick first between those to kits? Bifrost seems to have very low efficiency.
I whant to use one of these 2 ways with a pair of monoblocks KT88: Amplificador a válvulas monofónico HIFI MJ-88 II | Santafé & Casterad
On the other side I have a pair of BR 2 ways with Scan Speak's revelator woofer 18 cm. That's why I asked about the metal cones, but of course these kits are not cheap so is better to be sure before buying.
Thanks anyways.
I had in my mind the Seas TRYM kit, with the W22 magnesium cone. May be the Bifrost will do better.
What would you pick first between those to kits? Bifrost seems to have very low efficiency.
I whant to use one of these 2 ways with a pair of monoblocks KT88: Amplificador a válvulas monofónico HIFI MJ-88 II | Santafé & Casterad
On the other side I have a pair of BR 2 ways with Scan Speak's revelator woofer 18 cm. That's why I asked about the metal cones, but of course these kits are not cheap so is better to be sure before buying.
Thanks anyways.
Then you shout see the bijou. The al130 is tested by klang und ton to have top highend value very low thd and good lineairity.Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Or the bijou with a 17cm lowmid the al170. Bith designs use a ceramic tweeter that is better then the accuton ceramic ones.
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
With the exception of planar or ribbon type drivers, the most resolving speakers most people ever hear are metal or ceramic. The tradeoff is more crossover complexity but it's arguably well worth it/
Well metal cone drivers don't always necessitate extra crossover complexity, it just depends how well designed they are.
The SEAS excel drivers are some of the best you can get with regards to metal cone design, very smooth frequency responses that are only affected by the breakup. They don't need complex filtering to get them to fall into standard acoustic filter types, but they do need handling in the correct way with regards to the break-up. If a crossover of suitable design is used then often the notch can be omitted without much issue.
The problem is having to cross them over low enough to avoid the peak in third harmonic distortion that occurs at 1/3 the frequency of the main breakup. If you're crossing steep enough and low enough to avoid that, then the breakup is typically far enough out of the picture to be ignored.
The W15CY001 is probably the cream of the excel crop, being small enough in size to push the breakup beyond 8khz and allowing a steep crossover of around 2.5khz to be used to good effect, most tweeters can easily cut this. The W12 works just as well, only isn't as sensitive and doesn't have the low down capability of the W15. Beaming isn't exactly an issue either with the W15 as the xover is kept low by way of avoiding the peak in the third harmonic at 2.7khz.
The W16 and W18 drivers should be crossed over to something like the DXT tweeter which can really cope well with an xover of around 1.6khz. This is half of the problem with most metal cone drivers, they are inflexible when it comes to the crossover and their tweeters. Handle them well however and they do sound excellent.
The SEAS excel drivers are some of the best you can get with regards to metal cone design, very smooth frequency responses that are only affected by the breakup. They don't need complex filtering to get them to fall into standard acoustic filter types, but they do need handling in the correct way with regards to the break-up. If a crossover of suitable design is used then often the notch can be omitted without much issue.
The problem is having to cross them over low enough to avoid the peak in third harmonic distortion that occurs at 1/3 the frequency of the main breakup. If you're crossing steep enough and low enough to avoid that, then the breakup is typically far enough out of the picture to be ignored.
The W15CY001 is probably the cream of the excel crop, being small enough in size to push the breakup beyond 8khz and allowing a steep crossover of around 2.5khz to be used to good effect, most tweeters can easily cut this. The W12 works just as well, only isn't as sensitive and doesn't have the low down capability of the W15. Beaming isn't exactly an issue either with the W15 as the xover is kept low by way of avoiding the peak in the third harmonic at 2.7khz.
The W16 and W18 drivers should be crossed over to something like the DXT tweeter which can really cope well with an xover of around 1.6khz. This is half of the problem with most metal cone drivers, they are inflexible when it comes to the crossover and their tweeters. Handle them well however and they do sound excellent.
The bijou 130 looks like it would be fine. A low enough and steep enough xover to keep the 130s breakup nasties out of the picture and enough baffle step compensation to sound well balanced.
Thanks! I was thinking between the Bijou 170 or the Trym's.
I don't understand much about the complexity of the crossover, but these two kits compared with the Seas bifrost have more components. Still, the ones I've seen from Troels Gravesen web site have eaven more components.At the moment I have a 2 way Scan Speaks with d2905/9700 and 18 cm revelator woofers. It has been a long time since I did those from a kit, and as far as I remember it didn't had many components.
The price between the Seas Trym and Visatons bijou are similar here in Europe. Don't know really wich to choose, or if to choose any...
I don't understand much about the complexity of the crossover, but these two kits compared with the Seas bifrost have more components. Still, the ones I've seen from Troels Gravesen web site have eaven more components.At the moment I have a 2 way Scan Speaks with d2905/9700 and 18 cm revelator woofers. It has been a long time since I did those from a kit, and as far as I remember it didn't had many components.
The price between the Seas Trym and Visatons bijou are similar here in Europe. Don't know really wich to choose, or if to choose any...
Did you notice.
The Al130 is basreflex.
The Al170 is a closedbox.
Use janzen superior Z in the XO for best result.
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I couldn't agree more! A very good sum-up of the Excel drivers capabilities.
/Göran
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