Hi,
Yes that the general gist. An MTM has best performance on the tweeter
axis and the format lowers the height of the tweeter. A MT arrangement
allows for higher mounting of the tweeter and manipulation of the polar
response to optimise the above axis response.
A MT arrangement inherently has less vertical lobing than a MTM.
Using a dome as the midrange further improves the off axis responses.
The ZDC3's amount of baffle step seems to me more suitable, and level
adjustment of both mid and treble is easy. Not saying its ideal, separate
speakers would be, but at least your taking the situation into account.
The suggested layout (mirrored for the right channell) pretty much
maximises the effective height and width of the two channels.
A further concession to the near wall mounting would be vent tuning
lower, 30Hz as opposed to 40Hz, to go a little deeper with a mild
low bass taper, less fussy bass, probably best to vent downwards.
Last but not least, I can't see any reason why they wouldn't sound
really good to anyone who does like typical hifi speakers. I'd expect
the ZDT3.5 design to walk all over any Focal kit for the same price.
And of course, what I'm suggesting here to be better than any MTM.
rgds, sreten.
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I love the look of the old consoles, the style you are considering and the older upright versions. They do have obstacles to overcome. How do you envision you will listen to it? Sitting in front of it or listening while doing other activities?
I was considering giving my Bose 901's a new purpose by stacking them and rewiring all the left side together and the right together. Since imaging is difficult if not impossible with a console design, why even go down that road? Go for more of a room filling surround sound effect, not a critical listening set up. Adding satellites to a console negates the need for the console to begin with unless you just wanted it to contain all of the equipment and protect the buttons.
That being said, I can't wait to see what Dave has come up with.
I was considering giving my Bose 901's a new purpose by stacking them and rewiring all the left side together and the right together. Since imaging is difficult if not impossible with a console design, why even go down that road? Go for more of a room filling surround sound effect, not a critical listening set up. Adding satellites to a console negates the need for the console to begin with unless you just wanted it to contain all of the equipment and protect the buttons.
That being said, I can't wait to see what Dave has come up with.
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Hi,
That is not true, though ultimately imaging is
compromised compared to separate speakers.
With intelligent design you can get far better imaging
then one would ever expect from a console layout.
rgds, sreten.
This is just me, but I believe a console-based sound system is great for "casual" listening when you just want to enjoy the music for its own sake, rather than for so-called critical listening.* If stable detailed imaging is possible, cool! But if not, no big deal. As a teenager in the 80s I had a blast listening to my aunt's enormous 200+ pound GE console and my buddy's parent's mid-century modern styled Zenith. I had already been into audio for five years by that time and knew there was better out there, but that didn't diminish our fun.
Plus from a purely visual p.o.v., a nice console is just nice to look at.
* and anyway, in many live settings the acoustics are awful and so the sound of the various guitars, keybaords and vocals are seriously affected by the time they reach our ears, but we still enjoy the performance right?
Plus from a purely visual p.o.v., a nice console is just nice to look at.
* and anyway, in many live settings the acoustics are awful and so the sound of the various guitars, keybaords and vocals are seriously affected by the time they reach our ears, but we still enjoy the performance right?
my buddy's console is a bi-amped tube thing, awesome.
My aunt's console was a massive tube thing with 6x9's that sounded awesome (within reason).
But the cabinetry is great on those, look for used furniture stores.
Round here goodwill and salvation army consoles are horrid looking solid state things.
I agree, casual listening, or even room filling.
But imaging (in front of it) should be good with full range drivers..............
Norman
My aunt's console was a massive tube thing with 6x9's that sounded awesome (within reason).
But the cabinetry is great on those, look for used furniture stores.
Round here goodwill and salvation army consoles are horrid looking solid state things.
I agree, casual listening, or even room filling.
But imaging (in front of it) should be good with full range drivers..............
Norman
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Loving this thread. Jam packed with constructive ideas.
Going to sit back and watch this unfold, try to learn more
Me , I just hate it
But , let me bring my POW
About phisical / acoustical separation between channels , as it had already been said ; about phisical separation of the electronics ,which should not be
vibrating ; concernements about styles , etc . , which vary from each persons' taste .
BUT....
I was thinking about making the console with deep engraved spaces , at varying distances and depths , which would be a first (anti) diffractional / sound refraction element . Marble would be good...and elegant
I'm thinking of building a 1950s-style stereo console for my living room and have come up with a design that looks roughly like this:
The goals of the project are:
Any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated
Thanks!
Jeff
I wouldn't go MTM for this project. I'd use the largest woofer that will fit, and a horn tweeter for a simple 2 way design. Many of the pro woofers are designed for small boxes, but don't expect deep bass out of them.
For the port, you can have it exit out the bottom of the speaker enclosure. There's plenty of distance between the cabinet and the floor.
For equipment, you can fit a 19" rack in between the speakers, behind a pair of doors. I'd make sure that the equipment had a line level output for a subwoofer.
I think that the distance between the speakers is a function of the listening distance as well, isn't it? If they are a few feet apart, then you'd have to sit a lot closer to hear the effect. I don't think this is his goal with this project though.
For diffraction control, he can just install some 1/2" acoustic foam all over the front of the speaker baffle, behind the grill cloth.
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This is just me, but I believe a console-based sound system is great for "casual" listening when you just want to enjoy the music for its own sake, rather than for so-called critical listening.* If stable detailed imaging is possible, cool! But if not, no big deal. As a teenager in the 80s I had a blast listening to my aunt's enormous 200+ pound GE console and my buddy's parent's mid-century modern styled Zenith. I had already been into audio for five years by that time and knew there was better out there, but that didn't diminish our fun.
Plus from a purely visual p.o.v., a nice console is just nice to look at.
* and anyway, in many live settings the acoustics are awful and so the sound of the various guitars, keybaords and vocals are seriously affected by the time they reach our ears, but we still enjoy the performance right?
I think he just wants casual listening with this.
For me, I'd use a 12" pro woofer and a 1" compression driver and a horn good down to about 1kHz.
Clear finished maple or birch is the way to go for midcentury modern... err "Scandinavian modern"!
He's got enough room in there for a 19" rack and the associated rack gear. He could even bi amp using a pair of Crown D75 or equivalent, with a dbx crossover. Wait, that's what I'm doing....
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While this isn't exactly vintage, I built this with clear finished birch and pine. I've since worked on it some more and there's another shelf in there now. But, I just wanted to show how little space the rack mount gear takes up in a cabinet.
Attachments
As long as we're all throwing in ideas. I'll share mine.
I'd use compression horns for the highs, in wide waveguides, and an 8" mid-bass driver crossed as low as is reasonable for the horn/driver. The mid-bass driver would be chosen based on the preferences of the builder/listener. It comes down to efficiency or bottom end. Pad the horn to match up reasonably well. The option to go "active" 3-way (lower x-over active, higher x-over passive) using excess box space should be considered, with active x-over in the ~50-90hz range depending on the mid-bass driver chosen.
I'd use compression horns for the highs, in wide waveguides, and an 8" mid-bass driver crossed as low as is reasonable for the horn/driver. The mid-bass driver would be chosen based on the preferences of the builder/listener. It comes down to efficiency or bottom end. Pad the horn to match up reasonably well. The option to go "active" 3-way (lower x-over active, higher x-over passive) using excess box space should be considered, with active x-over in the ~50-90hz range depending on the mid-bass driver chosen.
Hi,
Of course if a more vintage sound as well as look is wanted an 8" FR
or 10"/12" + waveguide/horn could be used, they are valid options.
But they don't seem to be the sort of thing the OP seems to want.
In terms of "hifi / modern" designs and kits I know of out there,
I can't think of anything more suitable for the purpose or as
good as what I'm suggesting for the budget.
IMO the other alternatives would sound very vintage because
of poor off axis responses, which could relegate the console
to a casual listening system.
I don't accept that that should be the case. The thing should
be suitable for critical listening and superb for what is if say
used as a 2 channel AV system with a flat screen above it.
rgds, sreten.
I've checked the bass alignment for 2cuft and the box
should be tuned to 30 - 33Hz. Bass roll-off tapers
down to a -3dB point of 40Hz and rolls off below 30Hz.
The volume is not critical, 40L(33Hz) to 60L(30Hz) works well.
Of course if a more vintage sound as well as look is wanted an 8" FR
or 10"/12" + waveguide/horn could be used, they are valid options.
But they don't seem to be the sort of thing the OP seems to want.
In terms of "hifi / modern" designs and kits I know of out there,
I can't think of anything more suitable for the purpose or as
good as what I'm suggesting for the budget.
IMO the other alternatives would sound very vintage because
of poor off axis responses, which could relegate the console
to a casual listening system.
I don't accept that that should be the case. The thing should
be suitable for critical listening and superb for what is if say
used as a 2 channel AV system with a flat screen above it.
rgds, sreten.
I've checked the bass alignment for 2cuft and the box
should be tuned to 30 - 33Hz. Bass roll-off tapers
down to a -3dB point of 40Hz and rolls off below 30Hz.
The volume is not critical, 40L(33Hz) to 60L(30Hz) works well.
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I built a dedicated console years ago for the exact reasons you are considering it, youngins. It held all the gear, the speakers, and the TV sat on top. It was 6' long, 30" high x ~20" deep. It even had CD storage. I made it from solid 3/4" oak and I could barely move it by myself. It did look fantastic however.
It worked great for the original purpose but not so great as my system evolved. Eventually it became such a beast to use when I wanted to change things, I pulled it out of use and went to a Billy Baggs style rack. It sat on its side in the garage until we moved, I did not set it back up. Eventually I took it to the swap area at my town dump.
What I learned:
Make sure you can complete the project within a short period of time and get it into use. Mine took so long to finish that by the time it was, the mission creeped.
Keep the inside simple with adjustable shelves. I sized mine for the largest piece of gear I thought I'd get and then managed to buy something that did not fit.
I wish I'd looked at pre-existing furniture and modified it to suit. At the time I started building, I never considered buying something ready made. I just started sketching and building.
I cost me 2-3X more what I thought it would.
None of the above is meant to discourage, only to inform.
It worked great for the original purpose but not so great as my system evolved. Eventually it became such a beast to use when I wanted to change things, I pulled it out of use and went to a Billy Baggs style rack. It sat on its side in the garage until we moved, I did not set it back up. Eventually I took it to the swap area at my town dump.
What I learned:
Make sure you can complete the project within a short period of time and get it into use. Mine took so long to finish that by the time it was, the mission creeped.
Keep the inside simple with adjustable shelves. I sized mine for the largest piece of gear I thought I'd get and then managed to buy something that did not fit.
I wish I'd looked at pre-existing furniture and modified it to suit. At the time I started building, I never considered buying something ready made. I just started sketching and building.
I cost me 2-3X more what I thought it would.
None of the above is meant to discourage, only to inform.
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The sound of the classic console stereo: I wonder if the "big" sound of most consoles I've heard is related to the fact that most of them had their woofers operating inside what were basically open-backed enclosures - and many times there was no enclosure for the speaker systems at all i.e. they shared that same cavernous space with the rest of the various components! - with little to no damping material in the enclosure.* Then add in the rather high crossover point they usually used in two-way systems and three way systems (midrange drivers routinely x'ed over at 2,000Hz!), so the woofer reproduced a large portion of the midrange so that part of the sound spectrum was also allowed to bounce around inside the enclosure.
The result? A form of built-in reverb that is added to everything they reproduce, sort of a cheap home version of what Capitol Studios uses, and why they are a guilty pleasure for many people, despite the inaccuracies involved.
THEN.....to add more sonic shenanigans to the listening experience, a lot of consoles mounted their horn tweeters at an angle, typically around 30 to 45 degrees, so much of their output was directed at side walls, causing lots of delayed sound to be created for the listener at the higher frequencies also.
Lastly, and I am not very knowledgeable about this aspect of driver construction, many of those woofers used stiff suspensions (understandable because of the O.B. enclosure) but also, the cone material itself - and many cone mids and tweeters shared this feature - was extremely stiff, so stiff that it seemed like it would crack if you pressed too hard. I admit this could have been simply the result of aging by the time I listened to them, but I am not sure. Do woofers with stiff cone materials sound much different than ones with softer/better damped cones?
* FYI: not all consoles were built that way, for example, better Magnavox mdoels used a sealed subenclosure constructed of styrofoam(!), one for each speaker system, which is what the drivers were actually mounted in, and this subassembly was then inserted inside the console at each end. Do a search for "Magnavox Astro-Sonic" on google or Youtube for more info.
The result? A form of built-in reverb that is added to everything they reproduce, sort of a cheap home version of what Capitol Studios uses, and why they are a guilty pleasure for many people
, despite the inaccuracies involved.THEN.....to add more sonic shenanigans
to the listening experience, a lot of consoles mounted their horn tweeters at an angle, typically around 30 to 45 degrees, so much of their output was directed at side walls, causing lots of delayed sound to be created for the listener at the higher frequencies also.Lastly, and I am not very knowledgeable about this aspect of driver construction, many of those woofers used stiff suspensions (understandable because of the O.B. enclosure) but also, the cone material itself - and many cone mids and tweeters shared this feature - was extremely stiff, so stiff that it seemed like it would crack if you pressed too hard. I admit this could have been simply the result of aging by the time I listened to them, but I am not sure. Do woofers with stiff cone materials sound much different than ones with softer/better damped cones?
* FYI: not all consoles were built that way, for example, better Magnavox mdoels used a sealed subenclosure constructed of styrofoam(!), one for each speaker system, which is what the drivers were actually mounted in, and this subassembly was then inserted inside the console at each end. Do a search for "Magnavox Astro-Sonic" on google or Youtube for more info.
Hi,
No. A good H/W has excellently controlled off axis responses.
Not the same thing. A round waveguide will lower the effective
treble height and a horizontal rectangular horn has poor vertical
dispersion.
Not saying it won't work, but a 10"/12" + horn / waveguide
will have consequences when used primarily off the design axis,
the optimum axis is nearly always the tweeter axis. Anyway
its not what the OP seems to want, "hifi" speakers are wanted.
Speakers with wide dispersion sound like they are further away
than controlled directivity speakers for a given listening distance,
especially with a fairly close listening distance. Wide dispersion
give more acceptable results over a wider listening area.
rgds, sreten.
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