I probably could have lived with the Large Advents (Small Advents...I dunno, don't think that would have worked for me) for a long while, but I don't think I'd still own a pair, had I bought them way back when...the Quads (assuming they were still working--the diaphragms tend to go after a while) I think I'd probably still have.
Just guessing, mind you, as I went bounding down the wrong fork in the road for quite a few miles before figuring out that I'd made a wrong turn.
I'd think it's obvious, given the nature of the site, but no one's required in any way, shape, form, or fashion to agree with me. I just give my views, some based on experience, some on technical points, & some from both points of view. If you don't like it...that's cool by me. If you do...that's cool, too.
Grey
Just guessing, mind you, as I went bounding down the wrong fork in the road for quite a few miles before figuring out that I'd made a wrong turn.
I'd think it's obvious, given the nature of the site, but no one's required in any way, shape, form, or fashion to agree with me. I just give my views, some based on experience, some on technical points, & some from both points of view. If you don't like it...that's cool by me. If you do...that's cool, too.
Grey
Vintage.....????!!!!
I have been doing some reflecting on this subject of vintage speakers and I just want to jump way out on a limb(on the opposite side of the tree from Grey, of course!!!) so someone can cut it off while I am on it.
I am a designer and builder by trade, genetics and disposition. I have been a wood turner since I was 5, a carver since I was 12, and spent 6 years becoming a master furniture and cabinetmaker.
At the same time I spent a few years as a professional photographer, wildlife, portraits, and journalism. I also designed and built firearms, hand built rifles mostly, which gave me an education in metalworking and machining. I have studied and designed everything from boats to optics to web-sites.
OK, I will quit bragging or complaining, all I am trying to say, is that like Grey, I have this obsessive compulsion to figure out how everything works and is put together.
Back to vintage, I have often wondered why, we as humans are attracted to things that are aged. Ask any car buff and he will tell that a new Subaru is more technically advanced than a Gullwing Mercedes or a MG, but he will find more enjoyment driving the latter 2 than the newest Subaru. Why do people buy Harley-Davidson's when they are actually quite a ways behind the times technically compared to Honda or Suzuki?(I could be lynched for that statement, but my hometown is York, PA and if you are a HD fan you know what that means. By the way I ride a Harley) This phenomenon can apply to vinyl LP's, whiskey, wine, furniture, art, and the list goes on.
So how does this relate to vintage speakers? Well, let's consider violins. I have 2 close friends who are violinmakers, one of which just completed a commission to make all the violins for the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra. Now why in the world would a Stradivarius be better than a new one. The tools and techniques used in woodcraft over 300 years ago are in no way as precise and as consistent as the modern day wood shop. So it can not be because the vintage violins are better built that they sound better. If you have ever seen the insides of one, you would agree, they are pretty rough by today’s standards.
Time does have a way of improving things that cannot be quantified. In violins, even if you could replicate a Stradivarius exactly, the new one will never sound like the original. Why… time!! As wood ages the soft part of the fibre between the growth rings actually starts to breakdown and turns into a fine powder that you can fine in any old wooden article. As this occurs the properties of the wood itself changes especially how reacts to sound waves. It causes the sound to become more mellow and smooth and therefore more desirable.
This does not only occur in wood, it also happens to steel and metals. A friend who is a barrel maker, found some very old steel rods that had been buried for years. On a dare, he decided to bore and rifle one. After machining it to fit a receiver, he gave a competitive shooter who was at that time in the top 5 of the US. Believe it or not, it turned out to be one the most accurate rifles on the circuit and went on win dozens of matches. My gunsmith friend then took the remainder of the blanks and rifled them and everyone turned out to be an exceptionally accurate barrel. He told me that when machining the blanks, that the steel was one cleanest and smoothest metals he ever worked with. Why? the only explanation was again time, because as near as we could tell the blanks had been made around 1910 and had been buried for over 80 years. You do not have a metallurgist to know that today’s alloys are much more advanced and consistent then anyone could dream of in the early 1900's. We also had a blank checked by a metallurgist and he confirmed that the grain structure was unique and was similar to other metals that he had examined that were "aged". This has also been evident in cutlery, especially ancient Japanese and Arabian knives.
Back to vintage speakers, well... what were most cones made of and I have seen few enclosures that were not made of wood products, mdf is still wood, just not solid. And yes it does age the same way as solid timber. Cones were and still are made of paper, viola, wood fibre!! and of course will carry many of the same characteristics as it did in its original form of a tree.
Are vintage speakers better than the latest and greatest drivers and cabinets, no, definitely not in terms of technology and precision. But has time worked its magic on the properties of vintage speakers and making them sound different and possibly better, without a doubt. Now do not misunderstand me, a bad speaker from the 60's is only going to sound worse, just like a poorly made violin from the 1600's is unbearable to listen too. But it is very possible that time and age has added a little something special to the very best from each generation, and will continue to do so till the end of time.
So what do you think your new speakers with the very best from Scan-speak, Focal, and etc and those premium crossover parts that were but a dream 40 years ago will sound like in 30 years? If I were a betting person, I would lay any money that they will only get better and better.
Surf, Sun & Sound
I have been doing some reflecting on this subject of vintage speakers and I just want to jump way out on a limb(on the opposite side of the tree from Grey, of course!!!) so someone can cut it off while I am on it.
I am a designer and builder by trade, genetics and disposition. I have been a wood turner since I was 5, a carver since I was 12, and spent 6 years becoming a master furniture and cabinetmaker.
At the same time I spent a few years as a professional photographer, wildlife, portraits, and journalism. I also designed and built firearms, hand built rifles mostly, which gave me an education in metalworking and machining. I have studied and designed everything from boats to optics to web-sites.
OK, I will quit bragging or complaining, all I am trying to say, is that like Grey, I have this obsessive compulsion to figure out how everything works and is put together.
Back to vintage, I have often wondered why, we as humans are attracted to things that are aged. Ask any car buff and he will tell that a new Subaru is more technically advanced than a Gullwing Mercedes or a MG, but he will find more enjoyment driving the latter 2 than the newest Subaru. Why do people buy Harley-Davidson's when they are actually quite a ways behind the times technically compared to Honda or Suzuki?(I could be lynched for that statement, but my hometown is York, PA and if you are a HD fan you know what that means. By the way I ride a Harley) This phenomenon can apply to vinyl LP's, whiskey, wine, furniture, art, and the list goes on.
So how does this relate to vintage speakers? Well, let's consider violins. I have 2 close friends who are violinmakers, one of which just completed a commission to make all the violins for the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra. Now why in the world would a Stradivarius be better than a new one. The tools and techniques used in woodcraft over 300 years ago are in no way as precise and as consistent as the modern day wood shop. So it can not be because the vintage violins are better built that they sound better. If you have ever seen the insides of one, you would agree, they are pretty rough by today’s standards.
Time does have a way of improving things that cannot be quantified. In violins, even if you could replicate a Stradivarius exactly, the new one will never sound like the original. Why… time!! As wood ages the soft part of the fibre between the growth rings actually starts to breakdown and turns into a fine powder that you can fine in any old wooden article. As this occurs the properties of the wood itself changes especially how reacts to sound waves. It causes the sound to become more mellow and smooth and therefore more desirable.
This does not only occur in wood, it also happens to steel and metals. A friend who is a barrel maker, found some very old steel rods that had been buried for years. On a dare, he decided to bore and rifle one. After machining it to fit a receiver, he gave a competitive shooter who was at that time in the top 5 of the US. Believe it or not, it turned out to be one the most accurate rifles on the circuit and went on win dozens of matches. My gunsmith friend then took the remainder of the blanks and rifled them and everyone turned out to be an exceptionally accurate barrel. He told me that when machining the blanks, that the steel was one cleanest and smoothest metals he ever worked with. Why? the only explanation was again time, because as near as we could tell the blanks had been made around 1910 and had been buried for over 80 years. You do not have a metallurgist to know that today’s alloys are much more advanced and consistent then anyone could dream of in the early 1900's. We also had a blank checked by a metallurgist and he confirmed that the grain structure was unique and was similar to other metals that he had examined that were "aged". This has also been evident in cutlery, especially ancient Japanese and Arabian knives.
Back to vintage speakers, well... what were most cones made of and I have seen few enclosures that were not made of wood products, mdf is still wood, just not solid. And yes it does age the same way as solid timber. Cones were and still are made of paper, viola, wood fibre!! and of course will carry many of the same characteristics as it did in its original form of a tree.
Are vintage speakers better than the latest and greatest drivers and cabinets, no, definitely not in terms of technology and precision. But has time worked its magic on the properties of vintage speakers and making them sound different and possibly better, without a doubt. Now do not misunderstand me, a bad speaker from the 60's is only going to sound worse, just like a poorly made violin from the 1600's is unbearable to listen too. But it is very possible that time and age has added a little something special to the very best from each generation, and will continue to do so till the end of time.
So what do you think your new speakers with the very best from Scan-speak, Focal, and etc and those premium crossover parts that were but a dream 40 years ago will sound like in 30 years? If I were a betting person, I would lay any money that they will only get better and better.
Surf, Sun & Sound
Every so often someone does a study to determine why Stradivarius violins sound the way that they do. I've read at least three or four of these articles over the years, and each makes a different set of claims.
About ten years ago I ran across another one. This fellow had examined the wood structure of the spruce that went into a Stradivarius top plate under high magnification. What he found was that the various pores and voids in the wood contained a dried material that wasn't from the wood. Needless to say, this piqued his interest, so he began investigating.
Seems that the spruce trees used were logged high up in the mountains of Italy, and floated down a river to holding pens in the sea, where they soaked in the open ocean for months before being pulled out for use.
But that didn't explain the chemical composition of the material.
If it were simply dried sea salt, you'd expect to see sodium chloride, of course, in addition to various magnesium and potassium chlorides and carbonates, plus traces of other salts--the usual suspects.
But...
There was a strong organic component.
He started digging into historical documents. Turns out that the holding pens were right in front of where raw sewage was dumped into the ocean from the city (Cremora, yes?), so the spruce logs had been marinading in this rather unsavory stew prior to being cut down into pieces for the instruments, and that that's why all the other theories had failed to produce violins that sounded like Strads. Nowhere in the world could he find such a confluence of factors in our more health conscious times.
(Incidentally, I have a full woodworking shop which I use to build the instruments I play. So far I have resisted the temptation to try to season the wood I use in such a manner...)
Grey
About ten years ago I ran across another one. This fellow had examined the wood structure of the spruce that went into a Stradivarius top plate under high magnification. What he found was that the various pores and voids in the wood contained a dried material that wasn't from the wood. Needless to say, this piqued his interest, so he began investigating.
Seems that the spruce trees used were logged high up in the mountains of Italy, and floated down a river to holding pens in the sea, where they soaked in the open ocean for months before being pulled out for use.
But that didn't explain the chemical composition of the material.
If it were simply dried sea salt, you'd expect to see sodium chloride, of course, in addition to various magnesium and potassium chlorides and carbonates, plus traces of other salts--the usual suspects.
But...
There was a strong organic component.
He started digging into historical documents. Turns out that the holding pens were right in front of where raw sewage was dumped into the ocean from the city (Cremora, yes?), so the spruce logs had been marinading in this rather unsavory stew prior to being cut down into pieces for the instruments, and that that's why all the other theories had failed to produce violins that sounded like Strads. Nowhere in the world could he find such a confluence of factors in our more health conscious times.
(Incidentally, I have a full woodworking shop which I use to build the instruments I play. So far I have resisted the temptation to try to season the wood I use in such a manner...)
Grey
The stagecoach makers used to sumerge all their lumber and logs
in a creek or river for at least a year and then let it air dry for another two to three years before they used it in making their coaches.
Detroit used to season their green cast iron blocks for three to four years before they used them for engine blocks.
Now they do it electronically.
Maybe that's good news for all us old fogies that got our start
in the electronics field back in the 50s and 60s, just when tube equipment was making the transition to transistors. We should be vintage
by now but I don't know about sounding good.
in a creek or river for at least a year and then let it air dry for another two to three years before they used it in making their coaches.
Detroit used to season their green cast iron blocks for three to four years before they used them for engine blocks.
Now they do it electronically.
Maybe that's good news for all us old fogies that got our start
in the electronics field back in the 50s and 60s, just when tube equipment was making the transition to transistors. We should be vintage
by now but I don't know about sounding good.
A Gutter Violin???!!!
OK, Grey, now you are pulling out a your hidden aces, right? Look, you and I are both going to be labeled and evicted from this crowd soon if we don't stop posting these extreme views of ours!
That is a new theory to me. I would not dicredit it though, since there a many factors and infuences that have left their imprint on these notorious instruments. I do know for a fact that my theory also is correct from years of restoration work. Interestingly, one of my violin making friends has a violin that was made by the son of the master under which Stradivari apprenticed, Nicolo Amati. This gentleman is a third generation violinmaker from England, who received the violin from his grandfather. So I have some first hand experience, with very vintage audio gear!!
Well, there is something you and I could try, sewer seasoned timber for instrument making. If the instrument makers are as gulible as many audiophiles, we could make a loot. I know where there are some really big, old maples and spruces in Northern PA.
Sure would be a smelly job for the sawyer though!!
Surf, Sun & Sound
OK, Grey, now you are pulling out a your hidden aces, right? Look, you and I are both going to be labeled and evicted from this crowd soon if we don't stop posting these extreme views of ours!
That is a new theory to me. I would not dicredit it though, since there a many factors and infuences that have left their imprint on these notorious instruments. I do know for a fact that my theory also is correct from years of restoration work. Interestingly, one of my violin making friends has a violin that was made by the son of the master under which Stradivari apprenticed, Nicolo Amati. This gentleman is a third generation violinmaker from England, who received the violin from his grandfather. So I have some first hand experience, with very vintage audio gear!!
Well, there is something you and I could try, sewer seasoned timber for instrument making. If the instrument makers are as gulible as many audiophiles, we could make a loot. I know where there are some really big, old maples and spruces in Northern PA.
Sure would be a smelly job for the sawyer though!!
Surf, Sun & Sound
Since reading that article, I've derived a certain amount of sardonic amusement from listening to something like the Heifetz rendition of Tchaikovsky's violin concerto and telling folks that it sounds like....
(Don't misunderstand, I adore Heifetz's playing--think he was the One And Only, in fact--just having fun with the ironies of the situation.)
(For those who don't keep up with such things, Heifetz played a Stadivarius.)
Grey
(Don't misunderstand, I adore Heifetz's playing--think he was the One And Only, in fact--just having fun with the ironies of the situation.)
(For those who don't keep up with such things, Heifetz played a Stadivarius.)
Grey
Grey
You're certainly correct about the older Quads. Mark Levinson made an interesting variant, the HQD, circa late 1970's. Hartley 24" sub, 2 pairs of Quads top pair inverted mounted in a wooden trestle separated by a real Decca ribbon tweeter, system was tri-amped $15,000-$30,000/pr
For those into multiple drivers to spreadout the workload here's the ultimate design. Sorry I don't know who the guy is...
And for those nostalgia buffs into classic horns consider these.
Regards
Thomas
You're certainly correct about the older Quads. Mark Levinson made an interesting variant, the HQD, circa late 1970's. Hartley 24" sub, 2 pairs of Quads top pair inverted mounted in a wooden trestle separated by a real Decca ribbon tweeter, system was tri-amped $15,000-$30,000/pr
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
For those into multiple drivers to spreadout the workload here's the ultimate design. Sorry I don't know who the guy is...
And for those nostalgia buffs into classic horns consider these.
Regards
Thomas
GRollins,
the theory you exposed is very interesting. There is one problem: the city of Cremona is touched by a river (the Po) but the nearest sea (... we don't have oceans over here!) is at about 200 km.
So, to explain the findings of the analysis we should add one more complication: Mr Stradivari has built his instruments from a batch of wood that was 'imported' from another place. The problem to replicate now the same process is now bigger: we don't know which is the 'right' sea to use for our wood and it is even hard to believe that there was a method in Stardivari's choice: it could be acceptable to imagine that a process to make the wood exceptional for musical instruments existed and was perfectioned in the centuries 'in' the town who had a specialization in such instruments, it is hard to imagine that the craftsmen from Cremona were so great to invent the 'method for perfect wood' taking resources from such a distance (200 km were a lot in 1600, and between Cremona and the sea there were probably several borders to cross at that time)
Maybe it all happened by accident: Stradivari stepped in this batch of wood and just used it, then in the centuries this proved to be a wonderful combination of events.
bye
sandro
the theory you exposed is very interesting. There is one problem: the city of Cremona is touched by a river (the Po) but the nearest sea (... we don't have oceans over here!) is at about 200 km.
So, to explain the findings of the analysis we should add one more complication: Mr Stradivari has built his instruments from a batch of wood that was 'imported' from another place. The problem to replicate now the same process is now bigger: we don't know which is the 'right' sea to use for our wood and it is even hard to believe that there was a method in Stardivari's choice: it could be acceptable to imagine that a process to make the wood exceptional for musical instruments existed and was perfectioned in the centuries 'in' the town who had a specialization in such instruments, it is hard to imagine that the craftsmen from Cremona were so great to invent the 'method for perfect wood' taking resources from such a distance (200 km were a lot in 1600, and between Cremona and the sea there were probably several borders to cross at that time)
Maybe it all happened by accident: Stradivari stepped in this batch of wood and just used it, then in the centuries this proved to be a wonderful combination of events.
bye
sandro
Thomas,
I believe the amplifier used in the HQD was the Mark Levinson ML-2, which was a classic in its own right. I haven't heard one in years--I wonder how they would stand up to today's electronics. The vast majority of solid state pieces sound 'dated' very quickly (though even comparatively inexpensive tube pieces tend to hold up well in the marketplace), but if any solid state design from the '70s was to hold its own, I'd bet on the ML-2.
Sandro,
Luthiers (folks who make stringed instruments) will go to great lengths to get the wood they deem best. I certainly didn't mean to imply that they rolled a log up on the beach and built a batch of violins on the spot. Spruce and maple are sourced very carefully, then split into rectangular, wedge-shaped pieces of wood that are thumped to see if they resonate. The most select pieces resonate at particular notes, even before shaping. (And people think DIY audio folks are nuts...) I doubt seriously that any of the luthiers of the day gave a second thought to the sewage issue, as those conditions were common everywhere, for everyone. They simply bought the best sounding wood they could get their hands on.
200 km wouldn't be that bad. Assume that the wood merchant beaches the log, splits it, saws it, and sends the best pieces inland on an ox-drawn cart. Granted, there's a great deal of time involved, what with the logs coming down the river, sitting in the holding pens, getting rough-sawn, drying & curing, selection, and shipping--but it's not that bad.
I've been racking my brains, trying to remember where I read that particular article, but can't remember. I do seem to recall that there was an article in Scientific American about it, but I don't know whether it was the one I've been describing or not. Keep in mind that other factors have been identified as being key to the process, among them the finish used and specific tunings of the top and back plates, etc.
At any rate, it's not a process I'd care to use in building speakers. When I'm wearing my speaker-builder's hat (as opposed to my luthier's hat), my objective is to build a non-resonant enclosure--the exact opposite of what Stradivarius held to be his ideal. (Yes, I thump wood. If it doesn't ring, I don't use it. But I don't aim for specific notes.)
Grey
I believe the amplifier used in the HQD was the Mark Levinson ML-2, which was a classic in its own right. I haven't heard one in years--I wonder how they would stand up to today's electronics. The vast majority of solid state pieces sound 'dated' very quickly (though even comparatively inexpensive tube pieces tend to hold up well in the marketplace), but if any solid state design from the '70s was to hold its own, I'd bet on the ML-2.
Sandro,
Luthiers (folks who make stringed instruments) will go to great lengths to get the wood they deem best. I certainly didn't mean to imply that they rolled a log up on the beach and built a batch of violins on the spot. Spruce and maple are sourced very carefully, then split into rectangular, wedge-shaped pieces of wood that are thumped to see if they resonate. The most select pieces resonate at particular notes, even before shaping. (And people think DIY audio folks are nuts...) I doubt seriously that any of the luthiers of the day gave a second thought to the sewage issue, as those conditions were common everywhere, for everyone. They simply bought the best sounding wood they could get their hands on.
200 km wouldn't be that bad. Assume that the wood merchant beaches the log, splits it, saws it, and sends the best pieces inland on an ox-drawn cart. Granted, there's a great deal of time involved, what with the logs coming down the river, sitting in the holding pens, getting rough-sawn, drying & curing, selection, and shipping--but it's not that bad.
I've been racking my brains, trying to remember where I read that particular article, but can't remember. I do seem to recall that there was an article in Scientific American about it, but I don't know whether it was the one I've been describing or not. Keep in mind that other factors have been identified as being key to the process, among them the finish used and specific tunings of the top and back plates, etc.
At any rate, it's not a process I'd care to use in building speakers. When I'm wearing my speaker-builder's hat (as opposed to my luthier's hat), my objective is to build a non-resonant enclosure--the exact opposite of what Stradivarius held to be his ideal. (Yes, I thump wood. If it doesn't ring, I don't use it. But I don't aim for specific notes.)
Grey
It belatedly occured to me that I live with a pair of vintage speakers: Rogers LS3/5As. They were very highly regarded in high end circles for many years, but that doesn't blind me to their weaknesses. (For that matter, there's still a strong following, viz. the limited production run they did not too long ago where they sold for something ridiculous like $3000/pr. Yikes!)
Strengths:
Excellent imaging
Fairly good tonal reproduction
Weaknesses:
Inefficient
Severely constricted dynamics
Weak on both frequency extremes
Overall, I think they're pretty good speakers, but I don't go out of my way to listen to music on them. As a measure of my opinion of them, they're on my video system, which is very much second rank in sound quality around here.
Grey
Strengths:
Excellent imaging
Fairly good tonal reproduction
Weaknesses:
Inefficient
Severely constricted dynamics
Weak on both frequency extremes
Overall, I think they're pretty good speakers, but I don't go out of my way to listen to music on them. As a measure of my opinion of them, they're on my video system, which is very much second rank in sound quality around here.
Grey
Bozaks "not as good..."??
As an owner of a pair of 3-way B-302As since antedeluvian times ( 60s), I feel compelled to take issue with those who denigrate these drivers. It may well be they don't measure up to modern drivers, like ScanSpeak, but they have an engaging timbre and relatively uncolored sound IMHO.
Until recently, I was electronically illiterate, and still have much to learn, but after reading Dickason's tome on loudspeakers, I began to realize that maybe my Bozaks could be improved. This was confirmed when I began to fool around with a sine wave generator and RS sound meter to get a frequency response curve---the 302 cabinets resonated like crazy at certain frequencies. Also, Dickason points out that the midrange driver needs to be mounted within 1 wavelength of the crossover frequency vis-a-vis the tweeter. At 2500 Hz, this would be about 6 in., yet the twin tweeters are mounted on a ring-like affair in front of the woofer, a full 12 in. from where they ought to be!! The explanation for this comes from the fact that the woofer/tweeter asssembly was once marketed by Bozak as a full-range speaker where the co-incident drivers were an advantage, but they simply imported the whole arrangement into their 3-ways systems.
The solution for this, of course, is to design and build a state-of-the art cabinet for these drivers, including adequate bracing, heavy walls, interior sound damping, and correct driver placement. Add to that a full tri-amp setup with a decent crossover slope (24 dB/octave active) to suppress driver resonances (Bozak used simple 1st order passive cross) and then we'll see how Bozaks truly measure up! Will report back when this project is finished.
Would love to hear from other Bozak aficianados out there.
Rob
As an owner of a pair of 3-way B-302As since antedeluvian times ( 60s), I feel compelled to take issue with those who denigrate these drivers. It may well be they don't measure up to modern drivers, like ScanSpeak, but they have an engaging timbre and relatively uncolored sound IMHO.
Until recently, I was electronically illiterate, and still have much to learn, but after reading Dickason's tome on loudspeakers, I began to realize that maybe my Bozaks could be improved. This was confirmed when I began to fool around with a sine wave generator and RS sound meter to get a frequency response curve---the 302 cabinets resonated like crazy at certain frequencies. Also, Dickason points out that the midrange driver needs to be mounted within 1 wavelength of the crossover frequency vis-a-vis the tweeter. At 2500 Hz, this would be about 6 in., yet the twin tweeters are mounted on a ring-like affair in front of the woofer, a full 12 in. from where they ought to be!! The explanation for this comes from the fact that the woofer/tweeter asssembly was once marketed by Bozak as a full-range speaker where the co-incident drivers were an advantage, but they simply imported the whole arrangement into their 3-ways systems.
The solution for this, of course, is to design and build a state-of-the art cabinet for these drivers, including adequate bracing, heavy walls, interior sound damping, and correct driver placement. Add to that a full tri-amp setup with a decent crossover slope (24 dB/octave active) to suppress driver resonances (Bozak used simple 1st order passive cross) and then we'll see how Bozaks truly measure up! Will report back when this project is finished.
Would love to hear from other Bozak aficianados out there.
Rob
It was an interesting read, this thread dredged up from almost a year ago.
At the moment a significant amount of my (meagre) income is derived from selling old drivers, so i have some experience with them.
A whole different philosophy reined when these drivers were built. Full-range (well no deep bass, or often, highs), low excurions, fairly efficient (with amps outputting 2-10W they had too), light paper cones, and mentioned nowhere in this thread, the alnico motor structures that these used. There is something magical about these low excursion speakers. The best of them can do things in the midrange that many modern speakers just don't seem to be able to achieve and at what seems like very high prices that some of these 30-50 year old drivers command are actually cheap compared to modern drivers. The Lowther is one example of such a dinosaur that managed to survive and now is prospering.
The best of these drivers can be the heart of a very satisfyingly musical hifi. And when blended with the best of today's tech can be truly stunning. I am patiently awaiting Fostex to bring out the modern version of the FE103A.
dave
At the moment a significant amount of my (meagre) income is derived from selling old drivers, so i have some experience with them.
A whole different philosophy reined when these drivers were built. Full-range (well no deep bass, or often, highs), low excurions, fairly efficient (with amps outputting 2-10W they had too), light paper cones, and mentioned nowhere in this thread, the alnico motor structures that these used. There is something magical about these low excursion speakers. The best of them can do things in the midrange that many modern speakers just don't seem to be able to achieve and at what seems like very high prices that some of these 30-50 year old drivers command are actually cheap compared to modern drivers. The Lowther is one example of such a dinosaur that managed to survive and now is prospering.
The best of these drivers can be the heart of a very satisfyingly musical hifi. And when blended with the best of today's tech can be truly stunning. I am patiently awaiting Fostex to bring out the modern version of the FE103A.
dave
a little OT
While Rudy Bozaks speakers may be underappreciated, his DJ mixer (the first commerically available one) the CMA10-2DL is still prized by DJs in the know. Rumor is that it's discrete phono pres were copied by Vestax for their top of the line R1 mixer.
http://space.tin.it/musica/fcoletti/bozak_dj_mixer.htm
I have yet to hear Bozak speakers. I am a Klipsch and Tannoy lover though.
While Rudy Bozaks speakers may be underappreciated, his DJ mixer (the first commerically available one) the CMA10-2DL is still prized by DJs in the know. Rumor is that it's discrete phono pres were copied by Vestax for their top of the line R1 mixer.
http://space.tin.it/musica/fcoletti/bozak_dj_mixer.htm
I have yet to hear Bozak speakers. I am a Klipsch and Tannoy lover though.
I purchased a pair of Stirling Broadcast LS 3/5a's this Spring. They were $845 USD. You had the option, which I took, to have the crossover removed from the cabinet and hooked in externally. This supposedly allowed for more room and less magnetic interaction. I am no expert. I heard a pair of 3/5a's a long time ago and was amazed at the sound from so small a speaker. So. I can not compare, but I replaced my Magnaplanar MG IIs.
I think these could be considered vintage. I am aware of their limitations but in my room they have been very enjoyable. I also have a Cicable external crossover designed for them by Derek Hughes of the Spencer/Spendor family. The difference between the two crossovers is not small.
I have listened to many speakers and found it very difficult to get excited in the showrooms because they try to overdrive their systems. Then what cables, etc. do they have that you have? And will they let you take a pair to your home?
My wife and I like to target shoot and appreciate the custom guns that we run into at the ranges.
I played the piano for many years and composed blues and boogie woogie. I did not seem to have the right ear [or the left ear] for jazz, but I love jazz. So. When I listen to a speaker the most important thing I listen for is the reproduction of piano. That is not the only thing, but it is a key thing.
I am impressed with the backgrounds and vigor I have seen in the postings. I can offer only the love of music.
I think these could be considered vintage. I am aware of their limitations but in my room they have been very enjoyable. I also have a Cicable external crossover designed for them by Derek Hughes of the Spencer/Spendor family. The difference between the two crossovers is not small.
I have listened to many speakers and found it very difficult to get excited in the showrooms because they try to overdrive their systems. Then what cables, etc. do they have that you have? And will they let you take a pair to your home?
My wife and I like to target shoot and appreciate the custom guns that we run into at the ranges.
I played the piano for many years and composed blues and boogie woogie. I did not seem to have the right ear [or the left ear] for jazz, but I love jazz. So. When I listen to a speaker the most important thing I listen for is the reproduction of piano. That is not the only thing, but it is a key thing.
I am impressed with the backgrounds and vigor I have seen in the postings. I can offer only the love of music.
I'm all for appreciation of vintage speakers.
I currently enjoy listening to a pair of
McIntosh powered Altec 604s as a pair of
reference monitors in my home studio. The bass
rendered through the large woofers with thighter
suspensions is quite different than the
sound of modern long throw woofers, but equally
pleasing.
I currently enjoy listening to a pair of
McIntosh powered Altec 604s as a pair of
reference monitors in my home studio. The bass
rendered through the large woofers with thighter
suspensions is quite different than the
sound of modern long throw woofers, but equally
pleasing.
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